#21
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But can a system that is using a sub from one manufacturer and mains from another even if correctly wired begin partially out of phase? I don't know the answer to this. What I believe I have learned that I did not know before is that subwoofer placement is independent of phase. But both positioning and phase can and should be used be used to smooth out and integrate the sub(s) with the mains. At this point I believe it advantageous to either have a built in sub or a sub with the same manufacturer as the mains because I believe that if you have correctly wired the sub with the mains you will be 100% in phase to begin with. In other words you have a reference point. Now if I have understood you correctly, JL provides a procedure for correctly phasing their sub(s) to any mains. In other words obtaining a reference point of maximum and minimum phase. You set your phase there and begin positioning your system for best bass. If the room is really bad, room treatments may be necessary. Finally employ phase to touch up and correct any small peaks as I have done. I didn't have a severe problem to begin with. I, for lack of what to put the phase control on, put it on 0 and lived with it that way. My thought was, "Well, I don't understand phase. My mains and sub are in plane, so put the phase at 0 degrees, and hope for the best." Since I wrongly thought sub placement affected phase. This resulted, by dumb luck, in excellent bass for many years but not the best bass. The Watch Controller does have a continuously variable phase control (0 to 180 degrees). For me 100% in phase was at 0 degrees and 180 degrees was the null, so I split the difference at 90 degrees and this eliminated my little peak. This could change in the future but I have had no urge to change it. Again, thanks for the input. I think many folks don't use subs because they are expensive and ultimately can do more harm than good. Nevertheless, I am great proponent for subs. Helping folks understand phase vs positioning and importantly hear phase is important. It has taken me 40 plus years to pull a test disc out and check for phase. Dumb me. Last edited by Charles; 06-25-2020 at 05:06 AM. |
#22
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I don’t understand this either. I have been led to believe the phase adjustment of my sub is more to adjust timing of the sub - to account for the group delay it has.
Even if the mains and a sub are from the same maker and they are in absolute phase, the position of the sub will effect its integration with the mains from a timing standpoint. In my case, the perhaps poorly named ‘phase’ adjustment helps to align the subs timing with the mains so the wine wave peaks align. That may be poorly worded but that is what I think it does. To physically account for the group delay of my sub, it would have to be much closer to the listening position than the mains. That is impractical. Thanks for the discussion. I can only imagine how great your system sounds.
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Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2 X 2, Block Audio Line & Mono SE Amplification, Bricasti M21 DAC, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server Power: Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Sigma NR v2, Block Audio PCs, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - 4 X Alpha CGS cables, Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon) Modified Buffalo GS2016 Switches, Keces P3 LPSU, Cables: Wireworld Platinum 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 Speaker cables, 6M & 1M Tubulus Concentus ICs, Other: Multiple GIK products, Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Minis and Ultra SS, Three 20 Amp lines, Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona Rack |
#23
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The phase control on most* subs operates primarily at the crossover frequency, not across the entire frequency range. So it is not like transposing the +/- leads on the sub.
The phase control can only add some delay to the sub at the crossover frequency. It can not compensate for a sub placed further away from the listener than the mains. For 2 channel it is always best to have the sub in the same plane as the mains if you can swing it. * in HT systems, you can compensate for any positioning issues and get everything timed correctly because the pre/pro can delay the signal going to the mains to make sure everything is time aligned, even if the sub is far away from the mains. This kind of processing is anathema to most 2 channel aficionados so they either have the sub in the same plane as the mains or live with bass that is not time aligned with the mains.
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#24
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What he said!
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Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2 X 2, Block Audio Line & Mono SE Amplification, Bricasti M21 DAC, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server Power: Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Sigma NR v2, Block Audio PCs, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - 4 X Alpha CGS cables, Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon) Modified Buffalo GS2016 Switches, Keces P3 LPSU, Cables: Wireworld Platinum 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 Speaker cables, 6M & 1M Tubulus Concentus ICs, Other: Multiple GIK products, Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Minis and Ultra SS, Three 20 Amp lines, Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona Rack |
#25
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I'm not going to get back there and run an experiment to hear what happens if my sub spades are deliberately crossed. I don't think phase is a timing or speaker placement issue anymore. A timing issue is caused by speaker placement. I now think phase is independent of timing. But here's the confusion. Sub placement can be used to affect frequency response as can stereo subs, which are generally better than a mono sub, as can phase. This confusion is the reason why many folks throw up their hands and say forget it concerning subs. I want to say that my understanding could be completely wrong. Last thought is that I don't think timing is important with subs. I think you want to place your stereo subs where you get the smoothest frequency response. So if it's novice me, I want to be sure my system begins totally in phase. Then I place the subs for best bass disregarding the timing issue which I do not believe important. If I get a very good result, meaning a very smooth frequency response, move on to experimenting with the phase control to touch up the bass. If I get a poor result employ room treatments or an equalizer. I personally would rather put up with a peak or dip than an equalizer but that's just me. There are extremely good equalizers out there. I have greatly enjoyed this discussion. Best Charles Last edited by Charles; 06-26-2020 at 02:50 PM. |
#26
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Charles, I believe the ‘phase’ control on the JL Audio subs could have been named the Time alignment control because it does add delay at the crossover frequency allowing alignment with the main speaker it is closest to.
It is NOT the same as switching the +/- connections on your subs or speakers or simply changing the phase button from 0-180. I think we have kicked this around enough. No matter how the electronics work, it’s about the sound and I bet you have it nailed.
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Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2 X 2, Block Audio Line & Mono SE Amplification, Bricasti M21 DAC, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server Power: Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Sigma NR v2, Block Audio PCs, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - 4 X Alpha CGS cables, Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon) Modified Buffalo GS2016 Switches, Keces P3 LPSU, Cables: Wireworld Platinum 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 Speaker cables, 6M & 1M Tubulus Concentus ICs, Other: Multiple GIK products, Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Minis and Ultra SS, Three 20 Amp lines, Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona Rack |
#27
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New Thor's Hammer Installed
Charles,
30 Hz is very close to 40 Hz, less than an octave, so changes made at 30 Hz will have a substantial impact on 40 Hz performance. Timing matters with subs - not as much as say a mid to tweeter time alignment, but significant nonetheless. This why for instance I have seldomly heard subs integrate well with mains - unless there is some dsp going on as in an HT installation. By placing your sub in the same plane as the mains, you have the best chance of a seamless integration. Congrats, you’ve done a wonderful job on that account. Switching the speaker leads will invert the phase of all the subs’ output. Let’s say you have a recording of tympani. The recording should pressurize the room positively when the drum head is struck. Switching the speaker leads will create a rarefaction instead. Adjusting the phase control will add a specific amount of delay at the crossover frequency. By adjusting the phase control you can modify the timing of the sub output with respect to the mains, which then add together in your room.
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#28
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#29
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W9TR, I think your explanation makes excellent sense. With subs you have reinforcement of the walls they are close to and a myriad of other factors that come into play more powerful than the relatively small difference the phase control makes. These factors overwhelm the small difference phase makes.
When you deliberately switch the spades, I suspect it would make a huge difference that could not be corrected by the crossover phase control. This is why I could not hear "phase" in the past. However, since phase is so weak compared to changes in sub placement, first and foremost begin with the sub and main in phase, i.e. no crossed leads. Then place the subs for optimum integration, then tweak for phase. I had no option for my Thor. I had to have it in the same plane as the mains. This is why my bass was reinforced at the 0 degree setting. I don't detect any change in the 30 Hz note but other factors could be causing this. I don't think having the sub in the plane as the mains is necessary for excellent integration. Get the best integration you can by placement and room treatment if necessary. Then tweak for phase with the phase control and a subwoofer test CD. That's what I'd do. But be aware that theoretically the same plane is the best and try it first. I think it interesting that 99% of subs are not in the same plane as the mains. But you see, if you have a built in sub as with GW's Ultra 9's, you have no choice. Built in subs are always in plane with the mains. Then you tweak for phase as he did and get your bass leaned out. I think this makes a good case for built in subs. Thanks for the explanation. I hope that anyone considering subs will read this discussion. It's the best I have heard. Best Charles Last edited by Charles; 06-27-2020 at 01:41 PM. |
#30
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We have some real 🧠 here!
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Ivan FLORIDA MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES CAPE COD MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES |
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