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  #21  
Old 06-25-2020, 04:16 AM
Charles Charles is offline
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Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
So I guess your Phase adjustment is in steps? 0, 90, 180, etc?

The JL Audio subs offer a continuously variable phase control from 0-270.

Anyway, I am glad you have it nailed.
I think there is one more possibility and you may be alluding to it. Take GW's Ultra 9's. His built in powered subs are going to be in phase with his system. He has no option to experiment with independent placement of his subs. He positions his speakers for optimum bass, then optimizes his phase. Previously I would have thought optimum phase would have been the setting that maximizes bass which would be 100% in phase, but then that begs the question, why a phase control at all in a system like his? Systems like his may have an equalizer too. I believe my WC has one but it is easily heard and always switched to the out position. So is my HP. I would rather put up with clean peaks and dips than the effects they cause. I would never consider putting my entire signal through a HP/LP arrangement or an equalizer. I have been that route. I use LP only and my Thor is independent of my XVX.

But can a system that is using a sub from one manufacturer and mains from another even if correctly wired begin partially out of phase? I don't know the answer to this.

What I believe I have learned that I did not know before is that subwoofer placement is independent of phase. But both positioning and phase can and should be used be used to smooth out and integrate the sub(s) with the mains.

At this point I believe it advantageous to either have a built in sub or a sub with the same manufacturer as the mains because I believe that if you have correctly wired the sub with the mains you will be 100% in phase to begin with. In other words you have a reference point.

Now if I have understood you correctly, JL provides a procedure for correctly phasing their sub(s) to any mains. In other words obtaining a reference point of maximum and minimum phase. You set your phase there and begin positioning your system for best bass. If the room is really bad, room treatments may be necessary. Finally employ phase to touch up and correct any small peaks as I have done. I didn't have a severe problem to begin with. I, for lack of what to put the phase control on, put it on 0 and lived with it that way. My thought was, "Well, I don't understand phase. My mains and sub are in plane, so put the phase at 0 degrees, and hope for the best." Since I wrongly thought sub placement affected phase. This resulted, by dumb luck, in excellent bass for many years but not the best bass.

The Watch Controller does have a continuously variable phase control (0 to 180 degrees). For me 100% in phase was at 0 degrees and 180 degrees was the null, so I split the difference at 90 degrees and this eliminated my little peak. This could change in the future but I have had no urge to change it.

Again, thanks for the input. I think many folks don't use subs because they are expensive and ultimately can do more harm than good. Nevertheless, I am great proponent for subs. Helping folks understand phase vs positioning and importantly hear phase is important.

It has taken me 40 plus years to pull a test disc out and check for phase. Dumb me.

Last edited by Charles; 06-25-2020 at 05:06 AM.
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  #22  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:17 AM
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I don’t understand this either. I have been led to believe the phase adjustment of my sub is more to adjust timing of the sub - to account for the group delay it has.

Even if the mains and a sub are from the same maker and they are in absolute phase, the position of the sub will effect its integration with the mains from a timing standpoint. In my case, the perhaps poorly named ‘phase’ adjustment helps to align the subs timing with the mains so the wine wave peaks align.

That may be poorly worded but that is what I think it does.

To physically account for the group delay of my sub, it would have to be much closer to the listening position than the mains. That is impractical.

Thanks for the discussion. I can only imagine how great your system sounds.
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  #23  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:29 AM
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The phase control on most* subs operates primarily at the crossover frequency, not across the entire frequency range. So it is not like transposing the +/- leads on the sub.

The phase control can only add some delay to the sub at the crossover frequency. It can not compensate for a sub placed further away from the listener than the mains.

For 2 channel it is always best to have the sub in the same plane as the mains if you can swing it.

* in HT systems, you can compensate for any positioning issues and get everything timed correctly because the pre/pro can delay the signal going to the mains to make sure everything is time aligned, even if the sub is far away from the mains. This kind of processing is anathema to most 2 channel aficionados so they either have the sub in the same plane as the mains or live with bass that is not time aligned with the mains.
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  #24  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
The phase control on most* subs operates primarily at the crossover frequency, not across the entire frequency range. So it is not like transposing the +/- leads on the sub.

The phase control can only add some delay to the sub at the crossover frequency. It can not compensate for a sub placed further away from the listener than the mains.

For 2 channel it is always best to have the sub in the same plane as the mains if you can swing it.

* in HT systems, you can compensate for any positioning issues and get everything timed correctly because the pre/pro can delay the signal going to the mains to make sure everything is time aligned, even if the sub is far away from the mains. This kind of processing is anathema to most 2 channel aficionados so they either have the sub in the same plane as the mains or live with bass that is not time aligned with the mains.


What he said!
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  #25  
Old 06-26-2020, 02:29 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
The phase control on most* subs operates primarily at the crossover frequency, not across the entire frequency range. So it is not like transposing the +/- leads on the sub.

The phase control can only add some delay to the sub at the crossover frequency. It can not compensate for a sub placed further away from the listener than the mains.

For 2 channel it is always best to have the sub in the same plane as the mains if you can swing it.

* in HT systems, you can compensate for any positioning issues and get everything timed correctly because the pre/pro can delay the signal going to the mains to make sure everything is time aligned, even if the sub is far away from the mains. This kind of processing is anathema to most 2 channel aficionados so they either have the sub in the same plane as the mains or live with bass that is not time aligned with the mains.
W9TR, Very respectfully, I'm not sure you are correct in all that you say. My crossover frequency is 30 Hz LP. Yet very clearly it is the 40 Hz note that is affected by phase in my system. Also, what happens when you deliberately cross the spade lugs? I thought this put the sub 180 degrees out of phase. I can tell you putting the phase control of the crossover on 180 degrees diminishes my bass significantly at 40 Hz.

I'm not going to get back there and run an experiment to hear what happens if my sub spades are deliberately crossed. I don't think phase is a timing or speaker placement issue anymore. A timing issue is caused by speaker placement. I now think phase is independent of timing. But here's the confusion. Sub placement can be used to affect frequency response as can stereo subs, which are generally better than a mono sub, as can phase. This confusion is the reason why many folks throw up their hands and say forget it concerning subs.

I want to say that my understanding could be completely wrong. Last thought is that I don't think timing is important with subs. I think you want to place your stereo subs where you get the smoothest frequency response. So if it's novice me, I want to be sure my system begins totally in phase. Then I place the subs for best bass disregarding the timing issue which I do not believe important. If I get a very good result, meaning a very smooth frequency response, move on to experimenting with the phase control to touch up the bass. If I get a poor result employ room treatments or an equalizer. I personally would rather put up with a peak or dip than an equalizer but that's just me. There are extremely good equalizers out there.

I have greatly enjoyed this discussion.

Best

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 06-26-2020 at 02:50 PM.
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  #26  
Old 06-26-2020, 03:28 PM
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Charles, I believe the ‘phase’ control on the JL Audio subs could have been named the Time alignment control because it does add delay at the crossover frequency allowing alignment with the main speaker it is closest to.

It is NOT the same as switching the +/- connections on your subs or speakers or simply changing the phase button from 0-180.

I think we have kicked this around enough. No matter how the electronics work, it’s about the sound and I bet you have it nailed.
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  #27  
Old 06-27-2020, 07:54 AM
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Charles,
30 Hz is very close to 40 Hz, less than an octave, so changes made at 30 Hz will have a substantial impact on 40 Hz performance.

Timing matters with subs - not as much as say a mid to tweeter time alignment, but significant nonetheless. This why for instance I have seldomly heard subs integrate well with mains - unless there is some dsp going on as in an HT installation.

By placing your sub in the same plane as the mains, you have the best chance of a seamless integration. Congrats, you’ve done a wonderful job on that account.

Switching the speaker leads will invert the phase of all the subs’ output. Let’s say you have a recording of tympani. The recording should pressurize the room positively when the drum head is struck. Switching the speaker leads will create a rarefaction instead.

Adjusting the phase control will add a specific amount of delay at the crossover frequency. By adjusting the phase control you can modify the timing of the sub output with respect to the mains, which then add together in your room.
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  #28  
Old 06-27-2020, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Charles,
30 Hz is very close to 40 Hz, less than an octave, so changes made at 30 Hz will have a substantial impact on 40 Hz performance.

Timing matters with subs - not as much as say a mid to tweeter time alignment, but significant nonetheless. This why for instance I have seldomly heard subs integrate well with mains - unless there is some dsp going on as in an HT installation.

By placing your sub in the same plane as the mains, you have the best chance of a seamless integration. Congrats, you’ve done a wonderful job on that account.

Switching the speaker leads will invert the phase of all the subs’ output. Let’s say you have a recording of tympani. The recording should pressurize the room positively when the drum head is struck. Switching the speaker leads will create a rarefaction instead.

Adjusting the phase control will add a specific amount of delay at the crossover frequency. By adjusting the phase control you can modify the timing of the sub output with respect to the mains, which then add together in your room.
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2020, 01:24 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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W9TR, I think your explanation makes excellent sense. With subs you have reinforcement of the walls they are close to and a myriad of other factors that come into play more powerful than the relatively small difference the phase control makes. These factors overwhelm the small difference phase makes.

When you deliberately switch the spades, I suspect it would make a huge difference that could not be corrected by the crossover phase control.

This is why I could not hear "phase" in the past. However, since phase is so weak compared to changes in sub placement, first and foremost begin with the sub and main in phase, i.e. no crossed leads. Then place the subs for optimum integration, then tweak for phase.

I had no option for my Thor. I had to have it in the same plane as the mains. This is why my bass was reinforced at the 0 degree setting. I don't detect any change in the 30 Hz note but other factors could be causing this. I don't think having the sub in the plane as the mains is necessary for excellent integration. Get the best integration you can by placement and room treatment if necessary. Then tweak for phase with the phase control and a subwoofer test CD. That's what I'd do. But be aware that theoretically the same plane is the best and try it first. I think it interesting that 99% of subs are not in the same plane as the mains. But you see, if you have a built in sub as with GW's Ultra 9's, you have no choice. Built in subs are always in plane with the mains. Then you tweak for phase as he did and get your bass leaned out.

I think this makes a good case for built in subs.

Thanks for the explanation. I hope that anyone considering subs will read this discussion. It's the best I have heard.

Best

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 06-27-2020 at 01:41 PM.
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  #30  
Old 06-27-2020, 03:43 PM
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