Optical Cable vs. Digital Coax?

[cleeds]

Originally Posted by Clark2

... I suppose the ultimate solution to ISP dropouts is to purchase and download to hard drive all the music I want to listen to ...

That's really a workaround, not a solution. You might want to start a new thread on this.

The solution is to identify the cause of the dropouts, which is much more likely to be your ISP (or your connection to it) than Qobuz. You can test that with something like PingPlotter.

Who is your ISP? How do you connect to it? Checking all of those connections for integrity is your best next step, imo.

[clpetersen]

Originally Posted by Clark2

I'm in need of further advice from you streaming experts. .... Is the buffer in the Node 2i too small to cover the Internet dropouts that I might be experiencing? I've seen no specs on buffer sizes in BlueSound devices, but I suppose there's a compromise to be made between cost and dropouts. Are other streamers designed with larger buffers for this purpose? Or are there "outboard" buffers that can be purchased to ameliorate this kind of problem? (I suppose the ultimate solution to ISP dropouts is to purchase and download to hard drive all the music I want to listen to, but this is expensive, cumbersome, and defeats the main advantage of streaming.)

Explanations or suggestions would be most welcome. -- Clark2

You can test the buffer in a simple (somewhat crude) way - just unplug the ethernet cable to the Node 2i while streaming - how long does the music last? could be several seconds or more.
There may be some knowledge articles out there.

Do you have any hi-rez music on a computer that you can direct to the Node2i through the router? If no dropouts, then could be an ISP problem.

[Clark2]

Thanks, both, for your comebacks:

1) My ISP is Verizon FIOS, which has provided consistently high speed in both directions, according to occasional tests with SpeedTest, since I subscribed several years ago. (Our FIOS installation is non-standard, since the FIOS drop is far removed from my office, where our LANs originate. The installers were able to put one box (modem?) near the drop and the Roku on our TV and use the old Comcast coax cable to run a signal from there up to another box (modem?) in my office, where the old Comcast drop and modem used to be. I was warned that this would cut my Internet speed at the second box down to around 400 Mbps, which seemed better than rewiring the house.

I connect two separate routers to the two Ethernet ports on the FIOS modem/router -- I don't use their wireless or other routing features at all. One of my routers is the more secure for our household computers and network printer. My other router, brand new, serves the Node 2i over a high-quality, wired Ethernet cable 10-15 m long and also provides wireless service to less secure devices such as visitor's computers and cell phones, etc.

But I suppose I wouldn't be aware of brief dropouts in normal Internet usage, and our video streaming happens from a Roku connected to the first FIOS box near the drop and might get much faster service for all I know.

2) I will check out PingPlotter and try the intriguing suggestion of unplugging the Ethernet cable from the Node 2i while playing to estimate buffer size. (I also realize I have never actually measured the Internet speed with SpeedTest at the end of the cable that actually plugs into the Node 2i...)

Regarding hi-rez music on a computer, I could certainly acquire some. But I don't know how I would stream it from a computer file to the Node 2i. Did you have something in mind for that? -- Clark2

[cleeds]

There are more than a few things to explore there. I'm not familiar with fiber service, but conventional DOCSIS cable modems record their own event logs that can be viewed through a browser with admin privileges. Data such as that could be helpful.

But this really deserves its own thread because it is so far OT.

[Clark2]

Originally Posted by Clark2

...2) I will check out PingPlotter and try the intriguing suggestion of unplugging the Ethernet cable from the Node 2i while playing to estimate buffer size. (I also realize I have never actually measured the Internet speed with SpeedTest at the end of the cable that actually plugs into the Node 2i...)...

Here are a couple of observations on the above and a conundrum arising therefrom:

1) The Internet speed at the end of the Ethernet cable that plugs into the Node 2i streamer is every bit as fast as elsewhere on this (wired) LAN.

2) The delay after unplugging the Ethernet from the Node 2i until the audio stops is repeatably about 9 s when playing 24-bit by 96 kHz tracks. I guess that works out to a buffer size of about 40 Mbits. Sound credible?

Conundrum: If I have 9 s of buffer time but only experience fraction-of-a-second dropouts, that implies the my Internet dropouts are never longer than about 9 s. This is not credible. I'm beginning to think that Internet dropouts aren't, and never were, the explanation...

What do you folks think? -- Clark2

[Clark2]

Originally Posted by cleeds

...But this really deserves its own thread because it is so far OT.

Looking back to the beginning, I see that you are right. Although in my mind the original question was driven by my concern with dropouts (as explained in my second post), I have led everybody away from the thread title (though I might still come back there). If there's a good way to move the later part of this thread to a new one, I'm all for it, but I don't know how. What would you suggest? -- Clark2

[Clark2]

Returning to the original title of this thread:

I finally figured out a way to diagnose my very occasional dropouts. I listened to the audio from the external DAC and noted dropout times while simultaneously digitizing the audio output directly from the Node 2i with an external USB Audio Interface and Audacity. Then listening to the digitized recording, I was able to check the noted times for dropouts. There were none. Since I heard only two dropouts during this 45-minute session, it's not an exhaustive test, but it strongly implicates the digital-coax connection between Node 2i and DAC, as opposed to the Internet feed to the Node 2i itself. I will next try an optical interconnect, since the Node 2i does not offer a USB output. At a maximum of 24 bits by 96 kHz (set into the Qobuz login on the Node 2i), a TOSLINK cable really should have enough bandwidth... -- Clark2

[W9TR]

It also strongly implicates the DAC itself. As an owner of a Topping D50, (not the s) I would look toward another more competent DAC solution and not necessarily assume it is your network or the Bluesound node 2i or the cable. My D50 is by far the worst audio purchase I have made in the last 10 years. Even though I paid very little, I now realize it was waaay too much.

The Topping is a ‘data sheet design’ - copied from the part manufacturers data sheets with no focus on how it actually sounds or what a correct implementation really looks like.

[field]

Originally Posted by Clark2

For a PCM connection from a streamer to an external DAC, is there any benefit of TOSLINK vs. digital coax?

I assume both carry the same S/PDIF bit stream, but I seem to recall reading that there could be some kind of problems with TOSLINK, bandwidth or excessive jitter maybe? Are there other issues besides available outputs or inputs to consider?

From a Relative Newbie -- Clark2

TOSLINK has, or can have higher bandwidth than coax. Look for TOSLINK cables with a additional shield around them made by EMK. they have become my preference over coax cables.

[Clark2]

Originally Posted by field

TOSLINK has, or can have higher bandwidth than coax. Look for TOSLINK cables with a additional shield around them made by EMK. they have become my preference over coax cables.

Dear Field -- Helpful reply, but I'm missing something here: TOSLINK is an optical cable, so what kind of (presumed electromagnetic) shielding could help it? Or are you talking about some kind of exotic optical shielding? -- Clark2