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Harbeth Speakers World's best loved loudspeakers |
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#11
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Come on Dan... West Side Story deserves more than strippers.... But I realized that this musical choice could not be shared by many people here. Thank you for the nice comments. You know it is just up to you to come in person ! I am looking for a second 225. I have the feeling that the very tiny differences between the single 225 and the Shindo blocks is due to power. If the 225 keeps his magic sound while used as a mono amplifier ( this is not always the case with stereo amps as you may know ), then chances are there that the 225's may be better than the Shindo amps. At least on the Harbeths. But my guess is that if a pair of 225 sounds better than the CCQ on the Harbeths, they will sound better on any speaker. Signature updated ! thanks !
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There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats Albert Schweitzer |
#12
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Jerome - I've happily lived with MC 30s, so I well know the satisfaction these classic amps can bring. That said - and with the disclaimer that I have no experience with your amp or speaker - maybe the load is not ideal for the Shindo. You say it is not quite as fast as the McIntosh. As electrical impedance is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied, maybe the fact that your speaker dips under 6ohm in the midrange is the cause of what you are hearing?
Just throwing out a hypothesis here. It's entirely possible that the good folks at Shindo think that anyone with a speaker that sniffs anything under 8 ohm can take a hike and design / voice their gear for very very different loads. |
#13
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At SSI in Montreal a few weeks back they were driving Harbeth 40.1's with...
And it sounded great. Pathos TT is a class "A" that put's out 2 x 35W The Harbeth 40.1 is a very nice, easily driven speaker.
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Analog system: VPI Classic 2 w/Lyra Delos cart – Pathos ”In the Groove” Phono Stage – Pathos “TT” Integrated (RR Version) – Odeon No. 28 SE speakers – Wireworld cabling Digital System: Devialet Expert Pro 220 amplifier – Dali Fazon F5 speakers – Kimber/Wireworld Cabling |
#14
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This seems to be more about speaker comparability and less about mcintosh vs shindo. You were told that shindo is not ideal for those speakers from day one.
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#15
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Not all watts are created equal. Some do more. Some sound better. Some should sound better but are asked to do more.
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#16
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Very interesting post. First, because it shows again that many Shindo lovers are or were also lovers of the old times tube McIntosh amplifiers. There is even a member using a Shindo preamp and McIntosh old tube monoblocks with Altec speakers here ( don't remember the model of Mcs). This is not to say that Shindo and old Mcs sound together like most vintage gear. The opposite indeed as you already know. There was a time when McIntosh was building gear with so much devotion that still today, these well restored units sound extremely refined and transparent and very close to Shindo amps, and better than the modern Mcs to my ears and to some other people. I have to add a few precisions about the differences between the 225 and the CCQs. By now, the 225 does not sound better than the CCQ's on the 40.1. Obviously, the CCQs put more weight in the music, more easiness and actually, if one amp may be in trouble in front of the 40.1, it may be more the 225 than the big Shindo's. There is nothing that I do not like when I listen to the CCQs. Nothing is missing to me. The music just flaws very naturally. BUT, when you compare them with the 225, you get the feeling that the 225 is more "agile", "light". You know, just like you watch heavyweights boxers and then you look at a light weight fight. They do not have the power. But they have more grace through agility. This is exactly what happened when I got both the 2301's and the CCQs for about 6 months. Side by side. With 2 very different pairs of speakers. The PMC EB1i and the Wilson WP8's. Both speakers are not an easy load for amps. Not at all. They both like a lot of volts to start to sing. And what happened ? the CCQs killed the 2301's ( sorry Dan..., please do not read these lines). I loved my 2301's a lot. I never thought I would sell them one day. But I did. Because the CCQ's were putting the same weight, presence, power in the presentation, but adding to that an incredible ease in bass punch and control even in the very lowest octaves, and a fabulous openness in very high treble which extended higher and with deeper musicality and naturalness than the 2301's, AND DOING ALL THIS WHILE BEING FASTER, MORE AGILE, in a more gracious way ! All the people who came home and listened to both, audiophiles or simple friends without our illness, said the same. The CCQ's are head and shoulders above the all mighty MC2301's. Now, if you compare the Harbeth M40.1 impedance to both the curves of the WP8's and the EB1i, you will end up by saying that the 40.1 is a much easier load than the two others. Indeed, when I listen to them with the 2205, at 85dB of SPL, the peaks are not above 20W on the 2205. And I never listen at 85dB. That is already too much for my ears. My usual listening is at 70 with peaks of 75dB. The 40.1 is indeed a pretty easy speaker to drive. If you read Alan Shaw posts, which are always scientifically based ( but imho completely wrong with what we can hear, to a point that I had to stop any disccussion with him. He would laugh a lot at your statement that I share too about " not all watts are created equal". He believes with his followers that all decent amps sound the same and that blindly I could not be able to make the difference between a Nad 3020A and a MC225 !!! . BTW I can "see" a big problem in dialoguing with a true music lover like Jonathan Halpern !), he says that the 40.1 are a very easy load ( the average impedance is above 8 ohms indeed ) but they need lots of juice to reach life like levels of 100dB because of their low sensitivity of 84 dB. He recommends a strict minimum of 50 W with the 40.1. So for him, a 225 with the 40.1 is a stupidity while he has no problem with the 70 W of the CCQs on 8 ohm. Look at the impedance curve of the 40.1 : I think that my ears are very sensitive to this "agility" of low power amps. I talked with some dealers in Paris who are lawyers of the "low power camp". They only sell low power amps, even very expensive ones and refuse to sell anything above 70W. For them, like for Art Dudley, the low power amps paired with high eff speakers are just more musical and gracious than the big "tanks". I may end up preferring the Lafon even on the 40.1 than the CCQs ! When you need to reach 100dB peaks, of course you need high eff speakers. When you never go higher than 80dB like me, the game is completely different. You can enjoy low power amps on lower sensitivity speakers. I felt this grace of small amps also with the Verdier 845 Triode Spirit 20W monoblocks. They were more musical than the 2301's without a doubt but had troubles with the impedance of the EB1i. I am looking for a second 225. I do not think that I will use them in mono : many owners have said that the 225 looses a large part of his magic when used in mono ( opposite to the MC30's). Once again, this magic may lies partly in the agility of the low power designs.
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There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats Albert Schweitzer |
#17
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You know like me the hidden reasons why Shindo dealers have to say that Shindo does not go with Harbeth. I won't reveal them here : that is not my job and I respect those reasons now that I know Alan Shaw's ideas a bit better.
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There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats Albert Schweitzer |
#18
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Jerome,
Your system is looking and sounding good. I can't wait to see them in person. |
#19
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Wow, superb sound in both videos. The cat is enjoying the sound.
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#20
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Gentlemen........This is not a Shindo thread. The original topic is Harbeth 40.1 driven by McIntosh MC225 Amplifier. Just because a reference was made to Shindo by the OP is no excuse to hi-jack the thread in your personal interest. Open your own thread in the Shindo forum if you want to beat that drum again.
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Dan STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital cable, Sonos Connect, PurePower 2000, Stillpoints, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Wireworld, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Micro Seiki DD40, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Nakamichi BX-300, Sony 60ES DAT, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints, Wireworld, Kimber, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113 VINTAGE - McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, Sony DTC-59ES DAT, McIntosh 4300V, JBL 4312A |
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