An epic speaker battle is afoot: SF Guarneri vs. Tannoy Sandringham (take the poll)

[Alberto]

Originally Posted by j3brow

keep em both. 2 sets killer but different speakers. 2 killer but different amplifiers. swap in/out over time. that would be fun. forget the money, enjoy the hobby (easy for me to say , its not my money). you would have a brunette and a blonde, whats not to like?? when the thrill of the hunt creeps up again, throw a redhead into the mix

I like your thinking - and analogies. But I don't think that's feasible with my current house. Perhaps when the kids are all out to college.

Besides, that would mean a draw - and who wants to see a fight ending in a draw?

Alberto

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Alberto

On paper I would agree. But based on listening it's an extremely close race. So far the Tannoy have the edge on the lower octaves (duh!) and the SF have an edge in smoothness in the upper octaves. The soft dome tweeter sound extremely smooth, but I am also surprised at the smoothness of the aluminum alloy tweeter in the Sandringhams.

They arrived with the treble control switch in the -1.5db position (which matches Serge's posts of a couple of months ago.) Surprisingly for someone like me who prefers the highs to be a bit rolled off, I prefer it in the neutral position in my room (which is pretty well treated.)

The soundstage on the Guarneris is a couple of feet higher - but that's because the tweeters are a couple of feet higher with the speakers on their stands.

In terms of width, they both throw a very nice and wide stage well beyond the speakers - the Guarneris might have a small edge in term of absolute width.

Soundstage depth is approximately the same.

The Guarneris are better at "disappearing" - which is not surprising.

In terms of warmth (a key component of deliciousness), the edge goes to the Tannoys.

I need more time with them - especially with the soon-to-arrive (I hope) Luxman amp to decide which one I prefer because it's so close. Which is not surprising because they are two wonderful looking and sounding speakers.

I wanted to get back in the "chase" and I am definitely in the middle of it. With more things to chase that I was anticipating.

Confucius said: "Man who chases two rabbits, catches none."

On the other hand, I have a unique opportunity to try a nice combination of pairings: Shindo x Luxman x Guarneris x Sandringham.

Fun, fun, fun!

Alberto

I'm glad you're enjoying what you're doing.

The measurements you quote are from Martin Colloms, not John Atkinson BTW. Martin did indeed choose tube amps - all of them over 50 watts a channel and most of them 100 and up. No 15 watters to be found anywhere because they are insufficient to drive Guarneri properly.

Martin, a speaker designer/consultant in his other life, says "Because the Guarneri has good bass (within its natural limits) and rhythm, the power amplifier must be competent in these areas. My less-than-comprehensive list includes the Jadis Defy-7, the Acoustic Research VT130 (with BL-1 unbalanced-to-balanced converter, as required), and the Conrad-Johnson Premier series. From my electronics I expect an easy, subjective transparency; a good sense of air and delicacy; natural stereo perspectives; and, above all, harmonic neutrality. Conrad-Johnson Premier Twelve monoblocks offer all these things. The Premier Eleven can also produce civilized results, provided you don't require flat-out maximum loudness. "

The Premier Eleven Martin found short of power is 70w per channel.

I love me some Shindo but if you want to hear what Guarneris can do with Shindo, you'll need a pair of these beauties:

[Alberto]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

I'm glad you're enjoying what you're doing.

The measurements you quote are from Martin Colloms, not John Atkinson BTW. Martin did indeed choose tube amps - all of them over 50 watts a channel and most of them 100 and up. No 15 watters to be found anywhere because they are insufficient to drive Guarneri properly.

Martin, a speaker designer/consultant in his other life, says "Because the Guarneri has good bass (within its natural limits) and rhythm, the power amplifier must be competent in these areas. My less-than-comprehensive list includes the Jadis Defy-7, the Acoustic Research VT130 (with BL-1 unbalanced-to-balanced converter, as required), and the Conrad-Johnson Premier series. From my electronics I expect an easy, subjective transparency; a good sense of air and delicacy; natural stereo perspectives; and, above all, harmonic neutrality. Conrad-Johnson Premier Twelve monoblocks offer all these things. The Premier Eleven can also produce civilized results, provided you don't require flat-out maximum loudness. "

The Premier Eleven Martin found short of power is 70w per channel.

I love me some Shindo but if you want to hear what Guarneris can do with Shindo, you'll need a pair of these beauties:

I stand corrected. My bad, I automatically associate audio measurements with John Atkinson but in those days Martin Colloms had that responsibility.

About the amp power ... good (data) points. In my case, I take into account TLV (Typical Listening Volume) and I very rarely go about 90-92db - and then it's usually for showing off my system. My typical listening volume is mid 70dbs. I know because my trusty SPL meter is never far. So far, I've not found the Guarneris wanting for power at my TLV - which is what I am optimizing for - and the Shindo also keeps the Guarneri nicely juiced up in the 90db range.

Alberto

[f1 fan]

Alberto...I vote the Tannoy's but you can't go wrong either way. Trust your ears and remember it's about the music. Can't wait for the Luxman to arrive.

Dave

[Alberto]

Originally Posted by f1 fan

Alberto...I vote the Tannoy's but you can't go wrong either way. Trust your ears and remember it's about the music. Can't wait for the Luxman to arrive.

Dave

Thanks Dave, the Luxman should be here today. Fingers crossed!

Alberto

[Haurock]

Alberto,
Since I have a soft spot for Tannoys (owned a pair a Tannoy Cheviots for most of my adult life) my guess is that Tannoy will come out marginally ahead of the SF. It'll be interesting out both sets of speakers sound with the Luxman....

You have a very pleasant dilemma on your hands my friend, it'll be interesting to see in the end which way you go..

[gtubes]

I voted Tannoys. Paired with your selection of source and amps, man that will be so sweeeet.

[two dot]

Alberto,


Knowing how much you are loving the SF's with the little Montille.... I would LOVE TO HEAR them powered by my 30WPC EL-34 based Montrachet....

[Tonepub]

Originally Posted by Alberto

I know the common wisdom about small tube amps, but the Guarneris and Tannoys both have two drivers. Furthermore, the impedance curve of the Guarneri is rather benign 8ohm average and a minimum of 5.8ohms. Per John Atkinson's measurements:

"At 1m on the reference axis (a few degrees below the midrange driver), the sensitivity was 86.5dB/W/m—a good result for a miniature speaker. This was not prejudiced by the impedance characteristic, and I got an average value of 8 ohms with a minimum value of 5.8 ohms (fig.12, lower trace). Many tube amps will be happy driving this load, as I found in the auditioning."

At first listen, there isn't a huge difference in efficiency between the speakers.

One more thing worth mentioning is that the Guarneris were apparently voiced and optimized for the Sonus Faber Musica amplifier (a 50+50W deal.) I had a chance to listen to them with the Musica and the sounded really good - I almost bought the amp at the time I bought the speakers ... but you know how I am about tone controls :-) and the Musica amp was as minimal as they get: volume and input selector.

I thought I knew what I'd pick too, but my ears are telling me to ignore all the numbers and preconceptions and just listen. Which I plan to do - aplenty, and with the music I am most likely to listen to (i.e. not the perfect audiophile recording.)

Alberto

It's how complex the crossover is....

The more components, the tougher it is for a low power amp to drive.

I did the low power thing on and off for a number of years and still have a few low powered amps I really like (The CJ MV-50A1 and the First Watt F2 especially) but I keep going back to big power. The little amps just sound, well little.

But it's always fun to try something different for a while.

[two dot]

Originally Posted by tonepub

It's how complex the crossover is....

The more components, the tougher it is for a low power amp to drive.

I did the low power thing on and off for a number of years and still have a few low powered amps I really like (The CJ MV-50A1 and the First Watt F2 especially) but I keep going back to big power. The little amps just sound, well little.

But it's always fun to try something different for a while.

Jeff,

With all do respect....

You have been listening to the wrong "low powered amps"


Get an AN or Shindo...

Hook them up to some HE speakers....

and be prepared to be amazed...

Stephen