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  #51  
Old 05-14-2022, 09:06 PM
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Vintage Pete Vintage Pete is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Bubeck View Post
Not to sound rational (Oh, heavens!) about the new MCD12000, but I venture that no one posting here outside the immediate confines of Binghamton, NY has actually listened to the unit.

Bob
__________________________________________________ ________________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9” and Professional Power 24V; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes with Acoustic Diodes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent SBL2 XLR GEN 6 balanced and SSC8 GEN 6 speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record and CD maintenance : Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; L’Art du Son CD treatment.
Ken Zelin of McIntosh fame says it sounds incredible, beating anything they've produced so far...
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Main System: VPI Prime Signature TT in Rosewood, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Stillpoints LP1 V2, McIntosh: MP100, MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MS750 Music Server, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12 on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter, Add-Powr Wizard EM Field AC Line conditioner; Stillpoint Ultra SS's under (3) McIntosh MC501 Amplifiers

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable, Add-Powr EAU-2 AC Harmonic resonator

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  #52  
Old 05-15-2022, 10:05 AM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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Originally Posted by jayvis1 View Post
You couldn't be more wrong. I'm definitely NOT a "vintage guy" and it's hard to comprehend you'd get that from my post. My posts, like every other one on this forum, are just opinions. Some people just aren't happy unless they're trying the latest high-end toys in their system, which is great for the industry. The majority of us don't have the means for that luxury and are happy to just enjoy music reproduced on their more "modest" systems that have been put together via years of personal listening experiences. No one will ever convince me that a $100k + audio system is a smart investment since the cost for tiny incremental return is so increasingly high. Most who have them will most likely never be satisfied because they're just chasing the dollar sign myth. Again, just my opinion.
I assumed you were a vintage guy because you wrote "The best DAC is whatever the user's ears and brain are used to". This is a completely sensible thought for a person focused on vintage.

It is much harder to understand the thought behind that statement in the context of a person focused on modern gear. It asserts that an audiophile with a very nice $200 DAC would not be stunned by the improvement if they tried one of many excellent DACs that cost, say, $1000 to $2000...or $12,000. It even asserts that a person with a randomly chosen DAC could not find a better (to their ears) DAC if they put their mind to it.

But maybe your real point was the socioeconomic barbs in your second post? Those make sense, although I disagree. There are a wealth of options for audiophiles everywhere from $2,000 to $100,000. I hope everyone finds the best system they can within whatever other constraints they might have.
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  #53  
Old 05-15-2022, 11:15 AM
Charles Charles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage Pete View Post
Ken Zelin of McIntosh fame says it sounds incredible, beating anything they've produced so far...
And Mac makes fine speakers with an anechoic chamber in which to design and evaluate their gear, amps, pre's, and sources. I have occasionally wondered how other manufacturers evaluate new designs. What speakers do they use, for example? What room? I know that Paul McGowan PS Audio has very excellent music rooms but I have heard that Nelson Pass uses vintage speakers and a very basic system. Wilson has a very fine room and ancillary gear.

When Mac uses the words "reference level" it means it's their best effort at current state of the art. If I were starting over, the C-12000 MCD12000 combo with the appropriate ancillary gear I described above would be my choice. I suspect the production run will be many years. I think it is more beautiful than any other competing gear. Sure, there will always be many that don't like the style, but they are bucking history when they deride Mac. History has made its judgment on Mac styling. It's hands down the most iconic well recognized design in the history of audio.

Mac has never been minimalist in its designs. Now notice almost all other manufacturers have decided to mimic Mac. Now most have meters, ways to vary feedback, protective circuits, etc. features Mac has employed for decades.

Then there is the sound signature. Mac has always had one. That's why I am a proponent of an all Mac system. However, if you can afford Esoteric, Accuphase, Dag, Boulder, AR, etc. I would go with an all the same system.

There are also several extremely expensive amps and pre's, consider the dartZeel NHB-468 and NHB-18NS MKII at a cool 300K. You get about 700W/ch. JH is using four to power his WAMM system. Or the Chord CH Precision L 10Monaural Linestage and M 10 Two Channel Reference Power Amplifier for 330K that RH uses to power his XVX. These huge amps are no more powerful than 1.25KW's.

I think I'm on Peter's side concerning the above discussion. How would a 3500 or 1.25KW/C-12000/MCD12000 with the appropriate cables, cords, isolation devices, and IC's compare to the above? It would depend on the speaker and the ear of the aficionado. Also the room and other factors.

Summing it up, it's not the cost of the system alone. It's the thought and effort you have put into it that makes the most difference and you must stay disciplined. But the quality of the gear also plays a very significant role. If you are really into the hobby, you generally waste some money but hopefully learn from your mistakes and plan your upgrades carefully.

Sometimes I wonder why I have spent so much money and effort on my system.....until I turn it on and listen.

Best

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 05-15-2022 at 11:25 AM.
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  #54  
Old 05-15-2022, 11:58 AM
cleeds cleeds is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
... it's not the cost of the system alone. It's the thought and effort you have put into it that makes the most difference and you must stay disciplined. But the quality of the gear also plays a very significant role ... Sometimes I wonder why I have spent so much money and effort on my system.....until I turn it on and listen ...
Oh yes, same here! More than once I've looked at my system and asked myself if it's worth the cost and commitment. The question is answered when the music starts.
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Primary sources: VPI TNT III/SDS turntable, SME-V arm; Bryston BDP-3 digital player; Bryston BDA-3 DAC; McIntosh MVP-881 disc player; McIntosh MR-80 tuner. Preamplifier Audio Research Ref 5SE; Audio Research Ref Phono 2SE; Moon 430 HA. Amplifiers Conrad Johnson Premier 1B; Audio Research D-300; Bryston 4B. Speakers Infinity IRS Beta. Recorders Tandberg TD20A; Crown SX-822; Nakamichi 670ZX; Alesis Masterlink ML-9600. Power Tice Power Block/Titan (x2); McIntosh MPC1500; API Ultra II-20; multiple 20A derated dedicated lines.
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  #55  
Old 05-15-2022, 07:14 PM
Bob Bubeck Bob Bubeck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage Pete View Post
Ken Zelin of McIntosh fame says it sounds incredible, beating anything they've produced so far...
Several years ago I had the pleasure of a lengthy discussion with Ken at a Paragon special event. Most illuminating, informative, and fun. Speculation aside, the sonics of the MCD12000 will be a strong determiner of its perceived worth. This the general public might start to know about mid-June. YMMV.

Bob
__________________________________________________ ___________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9” and Professional Power 24V; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes with Acoustic Diodes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent SBL2 XLR GEN 6 balanced and SSC8 GEN 6 speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record and CD maintenance : Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; L’Art du Son CD treatment
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  #56  
Old 05-15-2022, 08:13 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bubeck View Post
Several years ago I had the pleasure of a lengthy discussion with Ken at a Paragon special event. Most illuminating, informative, and fun. Speculation aside, the sonics of the MCD12000 will be a strong determiner of its perceived worth. This the general public might start to know about mid-June. YMMV.

Bob
__________________________________________________ ___________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9” and Professional Power 24V; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes with Acoustic Diodes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent SBL2 XLR GEN 6 balanced and SSC8 GEN 6 speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record and CD maintenance : Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; L’Art du Son CD treatment
Bob, I doubt if the public other than a few dealers will see the MCD12000 anytime soon. I hope the wait time decreases.

Best

Charles
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  #57  
Old 05-16-2022, 08:30 AM
Bob Bubeck Bob Bubeck is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Bob, I doubt if the public other than a few dealers will see the MCD12000 anytime soon. I hope the wait time decreases.

Best

Charles
Oh, agreed. I contacted my dealer about the MCD12000 on Saturday and it is believed that they might have one to demonstrate at the McIntosh event they are holding mid-June. Hence, my conditional "might start" wording.

Bob
__________________________________________________ ____________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9” and Professional Power 24V; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes with Acoustic Diodes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent SBL2 XLR GEN 6 balanced and SSC8 GEN 6 speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record and CD maintenance : Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; L’Art du Son CD treatment.
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  #58  
Old 05-16-2022, 11:03 AM
Charles Charles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bubeck View Post
Oh, agreed. I contacted my dealer about the MCD12000 on Saturday and it is believed that they might have one to demonstrate at the McIntosh event they are holding mid-June. Hence, my conditional "might start" wording.

Bob
__________________________________________________ ____________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9” and Professional Power 24V; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes with Acoustic Diodes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent SBL2 XLR GEN 6 balanced and SSC8 GEN 6 speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record and CD maintenance : Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; L’Art du Son CD treatment.
Bob perhaps there will be a few dealers that will have demos. I know that I would buy the first one that my dealer acquired. The demand will be so high there's little incentive to have a demo as in the past. My dealer is huge into Mac. There's no 3500 in the store. Why should there be? Dealers are in the business of making money. Over the next several years mine might acquire ten MCD12000's which will go out the door as soon as they arrive, IMO.

Best

Charles
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  #59  
Old 05-17-2022, 10:58 AM
jayvis1 jayvis1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
And Mac makes fine speakers with an anechoic chamber in which to design and evaluate their gear, amps, pre's, and sources. I have occasionally wondered how other manufacturers evaluate new designs. What speakers do they use, for example? What room? I know that Paul McGowan PS Audio has very excellent music rooms but I have heard that Nelson Pass uses vintage speakers and a very basic system. Wilson has a very fine room and ancillary gear.

When Mac uses the words "reference level" it means it's their best effort at current state of the art. If I were starting over, the C-12000 MCD12000 combo with the appropriate ancillary gear I described above would be my choice. I suspect the production run will be many years. I think it is more beautiful than any other competing gear. Sure, there will always be many that don't like the style, but they are bucking history when they deride Mac. History has made its judgment on Mac styling. It's hands down the most iconic well recognized design in the history of audio.

Mac has never been minimalist in its designs. Now notice almost all other manufacturers have decided to mimic Mac. Now most have meters, ways to vary feedback, protective circuits, etc. features Mac has employed for decades.

Then there is the sound signature. Mac has always had one. That's why I am a proponent of an all Mac system. However, if you can afford Esoteric, Accuphase, Dag, Boulder, AR, etc. I would go with an all the same system.

There are also several extremely expensive amps and pre's, consider the dartZeel NHB-468 and NHB-18NS MKII at a cool 300K. You get about 700W/ch. JH is using four to power his WAMM system. Or the Chord CH Precision L 10Monaural Linestage and M 10 Two Channel Reference Power Amplifier for 330K that RH uses to power his XVX. These huge amps are no more powerful than 1.25KW's.

I think I'm on Peter's side concerning the above discussion. How would a 3500 or 1.25KW/C-12000/MCD12000 with the appropriate cables, cords, isolation devices, and IC's compare to the above? It would depend on the speaker and the ear of the aficionado. Also the room and other factors.

Summing it up, it's not the cost of the system alone. It's the thought and effort you have put into it that makes the most difference and you must stay disciplined. But the quality of the gear also plays a very significant role. If you are really into the hobby, you generally waste some money but hopefully learn from your mistakes and plan your upgrades carefully.

Sometimes I wonder why I have spent so much money and effort on my system.....until I turn it on and listen.

Best

Charles
And yet, you want to keep spending more. Bet your wife's glad you don't have too many other hobbies.

Last edited by jayvis1; 05-17-2022 at 11:01 AM.
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  #60  
Old 05-17-2022, 12:27 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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Originally Posted by jayvis1 View Post
And yet, you want to keep spending more. Bet your wife's glad you don't have too many other hobbies.
Hey, Jay, you have a well thought out viewpoint. I like that. If you examine my system carefully you will discover I don't have much more to spend on. I did a huge cable upgrade several years ago. My old cables were at least 20 years old as were my old conditioners. I never plan to change from Mac. I can't conceive of new speakers or crossover. I'm waiting on three AS125 amp stands.

So if the D1100 is replaced I might bite. That's about it. My beloved wife passed over a year ago after a long illness. I have over the years been by pure good fortune, very successful investing. So she never complained. I recently made a huge amount of money in the stock market, have sold all my positions, never plan to buy another stock. I'm old.

Best

Charles

p.s. I'm heading out to the roller rink tonight to skate like crazy. I like skating as much as I do the high end and its much cheaper.

Me and T-Stacks Frank. He's signing some mags for me. He's one of the best skaters in America. He's so humble it's incredible. The things he can do on roller skates are amazing and he calls me friend. Note the sweat. This is in real time. His wheels never get dirty. He skates on old rink wheels. He can make his skates literally do anything. I have never seen anything like it.


Last edited by Charles; 05-17-2022 at 12:49 PM.
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