AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > Cary Audio Design

Cary Audio Design Superior Quality and Value

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:54 AM
joeling joeling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 368
Default

Thanks for the insight. Struggling a bit on this combo. Maybe the amp still breaking-in but I find the high a little shrill. Seems weird that a SET can be like this.

I'm looking for SET sound with this combo. So far, still on the quest.

Regards,
Joe Ling
__________________
Source 1 - Bergmann Sleipner + Benz Micro LP-S + ARC ref phono 10 (should have done this ages ago)

Source 2 - Avid Acutus SP reference + Thales Reference tone arm + Benz Micro LPS (DS Audio Master 1 broken tip repaired but cost me USD2k. Still having issues - channel imbalance - back to dealer. However, channel issues not withstanding, sounded very very nice. Need to get it back soonest)

Source 3 - DCS Vivaldi + Antelope reference clock or Cybershaft Op18 (not floating my boat so far)

Source 5 - ROON ROCK with Aurender W20 as NAS & 2 units of SOTM switch with 10M input (the new frontier but still cannot beat CD for now) - ROON endpoint - Vivaldi upsampler

Amplification - Naim Statement

Speakers - ProAc Carbon 8 + JL FM113 x2 (replacement purchased - Stella Utopia EVO but due to lockdown, could be a year's wait)

Purepower 2000 x 2 (&$@#% but
sounds nice)

Shunyata Denali X 2

Last edited by joeling; 07-17-2011 at 12:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-17-2011, 01:16 AM
Amfibius's Avatar
Amfibius Amfibius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 583
Default

Hi Joe, I think I have told you previously that I used to run a Cary 805AE SET with a pair of ProAc D38's. Absolutely right, they sound shrill! It took a long time before the sound settled, but the frequency balance was always tipped towards the upper registers. After a lot of listening, I think that the reason they sound shrill is because they are clipping when the volume is turned up. It doesn't take much to clip these amps, given how low powered and intolerant of impedance swings they are.

I tried to tune out the harshness by swapping tubes but I did not hear any difference. In retrospect, I think that the constant clipping was masking any difference between the tubes.

With some types of music - female vocals, violin solos, small string ensembles - and played at a low volume - they are amazing. Incredibly transparent, lush, and magical. BUT if you throw something big at them - e.g. orchestral works by Shostakovich and Mahler, they really struggle. You can hear the clipping by listening for dynamic compression. Orchestral surges don't get any louder. And you get a lot of high frequency hash.

Given that you have the Cary's and the AR - why not try bi-amping your speakers? Does your preamp have two outputs? Otherwise, try a Behringer CX2310 crossover. I know, I know ... it is a $150 analog crossover. But it is cheap enough to buy and try. In fact, I have a spare one here which I can send to you for free for evaluation if you pay the shipping
__________________
Source: Playback Designs MPS-5, Micro-Seiki BL99V, MA505 Mk2, Lyra Dorian, Denon 103D, RCM Sensor Phono Stage. Amplification: Cary SLP-05 pre, Cary CAD-211AE, SGR EL30S power, Marchand XM44. Speakers: Acapella High Violon, JL Audio F110 subwoofer pair. Pictures here
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:10 AM
cmalak's Avatar
cmalak cmalak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,602
Default

Keith/Joe...My sense is if you bi-amp with different brandsand hence amp designs you will get a discontinuous sonic signature (due to slight shifts in phase, timing and timbral characteristics of the different amp designs), so you will not get a sonic presentation that seems coherent or cut from the same cloth. I think for the Cary 805 AEs, you will need a speaker that stays put above 6ohms (preferably above 8ohms) that is fairly efficient, although with it's 50wpc, you can get it to play loud with speakers of moderate efficiency without any problems. The key will be a flat stable impedance curve above 6ohms at least. I suspect the D38s dip below 4ohms in the bass frequency region which is why the combination sounds tipped up because the amp is not able to deliver sufficient current in the low frequencies, so you get attenuated bass output and hence the midrange and treble frequencies are highlighted. I am speculating but as Keith has mentioned, the amp is probably clipping or running out of current delivery in essence at those portions of the frequency band that represent a much tougher load. Just my 2c.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:10 AM
Amfibius's Avatar
Amfibius Amfibius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 583
Default

cmalak, I am currently bi-amping with a solid state amp for bass and my Cary valve amps for midrange/tweeter. At the moment my measurement setup has been lent to a friend but I will get it back fairly soon (I hope!). And then, I will be able to tell you how much difference in phase there is between the two amps.

In any case, I believe it is far more important to worry about making sure that the amps do not clip - and stay within the linear range of their output - than worrying about small orders of phase shift and group delay. Others may have a different opinion, and I accept that. I might change my mind after I do a few sweeps and quantify the phenomenon myself.
__________________
Source: Playback Designs MPS-5, Micro-Seiki BL99V, MA505 Mk2, Lyra Dorian, Denon 103D, RCM Sensor Phono Stage. Amplification: Cary SLP-05 pre, Cary CAD-211AE, SGR EL30S power, Marchand XM44. Speakers: Acapella High Violon, JL Audio F110 subwoofer pair. Pictures here
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:21 AM
cmalak's Avatar
cmalak cmalak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,602
Default

Keith...if you do not hear any anomalies and the sound is coherent top to bottom then that is all that matters (i.e., clearly there is not enough of a difference between the two amps that are showing up in the sonics). I agree with you that making sure amps stay within their linear range of output is key. It would be helpful for Joe to know the impedance curve for his D38s. Because if they dip below their 4 ohm nominal rating also in the mid- and/or treble-bands then the Cary 805s may still clip at those difficult load points.

PS: My name is Cyril (it's in my signature line). All the best
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-20-2011, 06:17 PM
Amfibius's Avatar
Amfibius Amfibius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 583
Default

Hi Cyril, sorry I missed your post from a couple of days ago! I think that Joe has a pair of D80R's, and not D38's. I used to run D38's. I never took an impedance plot, but the nominal impedance was 4 Ohms. Which means they probably dip below 4 Ohm at some point. I am sure Joe's D80R's would be the same.

It took a while for me to sell my D38's, and I still had them when I bought my CAD-211AE's. I can tell you that with 110W of triode power behind them, they really got up and sang. No more dynamic compression, no more harsh top end when the volume is turned up.

My suggestion that Joe try bi-amping his speaker should cost him next to nothing, given that he already owns the amps and only needs to buy the cables It might be worth trying it to see if clipping is the cause of the sound that he described.
__________________
Source: Playback Designs MPS-5, Micro-Seiki BL99V, MA505 Mk2, Lyra Dorian, Denon 103D, RCM Sensor Phono Stage. Amplification: Cary SLP-05 pre, Cary CAD-211AE, SGR EL30S power, Marchand XM44. Speakers: Acapella High Violon, JL Audio F110 subwoofer pair. Pictures here
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-20-2011, 08:16 PM
cmalak's Avatar
cmalak cmalak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,602
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amfibius View Post
Hi Cyril, sorry I missed your post from a couple of days ago! I think that Joe has a pair of D80R's, and not D38's. I used to run D38's. I never took an impedance plot, but the nominal impedance was 4 Ohms. Which means they probably dip below 4 Ohm at some point. I am sure Joe's D80R's would be the same.

It took a while for me to sell my D38's, and I still had them when I bought my CAD-211AE's. I can tell you that with 110W of triode power behind them, they really got up and sang. No more dynamic compression, no more harsh top end when the volume is turned up.

My suggestion that Joe try bi-amping his speaker should cost him next to nothing, given that he already owns the amps and only needs to buy the cables It might be worth trying it to see if clipping is the cause of the sound that he described.
Keith...I agree
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-20-2011, 10:08 PM
Rilands's Avatar
Rilands Rilands is offline
Music Lover
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,235
Default




Beautiful.
__________________
Mike
~~~
Home Theater
Mcintosh MC205,MX150,MS300,MVP871,Pioneer BDP-51FD,Roku,Pioneer Signature Elite 141,Furman It-Reference15,Sonus Faber Cremonas
Two Channel Room
Mcintosh MC501's,C2300,MCD500, ClearAudio Emotion TT,Furman It-Reference15,Sonus Faber Elipsas,Sonos Connect
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-21-2011, 12:21 AM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide View Post
Thanks for all the comments..



Lol. Yes, I have plenty of Zeus..





I missed this !
B E A U T I F U L !
And Zeus seems to enjoy the place ( waiting for his balad...) very much.
Is this a Sonic Fontier Dac ? What is your digital media ?
__________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats
Albert Schweitzer
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-25-2011, 12:20 AM
Prestige Worldwide's Avatar
Prestige Worldwide Prestige Worldwide is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 160
Default

Thanks for the replies.

It was actually a SF phono preamp, but I've since swapped it out for an Ayre P-5xe (also replaced the Mac with an Accuphase amp). On the digital front I have a headless mac mini connected to my benchmark dac via a wireworld supernova 6 cable.

Here are a few of updated pics..





Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:44 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video