AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Audio & Video > Tuners

Tuners FM, HD, Satellite

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:07 AM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 107
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
...The easiest test to see if you have HD self noise is to switch your tuner to mono. If the noise goes away in mono, you have HD self noise or the signal you are receiving is not full quieting in stereo anyway. You need about 20 dB more signal strength to get full quieting in stereo vs mono. That's exclusive of HD self noise.
Tom -- Yes, I'm pretty sure I have HD self noise on one station, especially since another station of similar strength (at the tuner) without HD sounds quiet.

But you had seemed to imply (in your earlier post) that good post-detection filtering (or a better stereo decoder?) could compensate for a wide IF pass-band. That was the reason for my question about (2). Did I misunderstand, or can you get rid of the self-noise by post-detection filtering without increasing distortion by using a narrow IF?

The answer to this question would seem important for choosing a tuner to get great analog sound on a station with HD channels... -- Clark2

Last edited by Clark2; 03-07-2019 at 02:54 PM. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:39 PM
W9TR's Avatar
W9TR W9TR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Neutral Zone
Posts: 4,665
Default

Clark,
Narrow IF bandwidth and good post detection filtering both work to eliminate HD self noise.

Tuner implementations of wide and narrow IF’s and post detection filtering vary widely so it’s hard for me to make a generalization.

I think the only way to see if a tuner works for you is to try it out in your system. The proof is in the listening.

Tom
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-10-2019, 11:04 AM
cleeds cleeds is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
... I think the only way to see if a tuner works for you is to try it out in your system. The proof is in the listening ...
+1. This is often true in audio, but especially so when evaluating a tuner. Reception conditions vary greatly and it's difficult to predict results with any accuracy.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-10-2019, 05:33 PM
Formerly YB-2's Avatar
Formerly YB-2 Formerly YB-2 is offline
Retired

 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ Shore
Posts: 8,404
Default

+2. Can do all reading of theory and analysis you want, but plugging in a proper tuner & antenna provides the correct answer.
__________________
Glenn...
Clearaudio SM Pro Focal Bathys JLA 10" Dominion Kuzma Stabi S w/MC & MM Magnepan 1,7i McIntosh MA8950 Oppo 203 Roon Nucleus Rose Hifi RS150B Shunyata Gemini-4 Sony ST-A6B, TA-F6B & PS-X75 Sorane SA1.2 & TA-1L Stillpoints LP1v2 WW Pt, Au & Ag
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-10-2019, 10:37 PM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 107
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formerly YB-2 View Post
+2. Can do all reading of theory and analysis you want, but plugging in a proper tuner & antenna provides the correct answer.
I accept what you folks are telling me, but aren't you at all curious about how HD works and what specific artifacts it produces?

(Interestingly, the HD Radio group on Yahoo! appears to be dead -- the last post before mine is dated Feb. 20, 2014, and the moderator does not respond to email!)

I hear you telling me that HD does not sound as good as analog FM, but I don't hear any details about how it falls short. I know from my car-radio listening that it's much better than Sirius/XM. I presume that it's adequate in some situations (and it is certainly quiet). I suppose I'll have to find out for myself... -- Clark2
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-11-2019, 03:42 AM
Macuser Macuser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Connectitax
Posts: 366
Default

^^^^I've had several very good tuners over the years and still have a couple of good vintage Mac tuners. My thoughts are no matter how good those tuners sound they cannot make up for the lack of programming, constant commercials or compression that is today's fm. Putting the same effort into a streaming set up will yield much better results and that's probably the reason Yahoo HD Radio group is no longer around
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-11-2019, 08:01 AM
cleeds cleeds is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark2 View Post
I accept what you folks are telling me, but aren't you at all curious about how HD works and what specific artifacts it produces? -- Clark2
I've heard HD broadcasts more than a few times, and that's about all I need to know how well it works (not very) and what artifacts result (low fidelity).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark2 View Post
(Interestingly, the HD Radio group on Yahoo! appears to be dead -- the last post before mine is dated Feb. 20, 2014, and the moderator does not respond to email!)
That doesn't surprise me - HD is essentially dead in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark2 View Post
I know from my car-radio listening that it's much better than Sirius/XM.
I'd say the net sound quality of HD and XM (via the satellites) is about the same. If you've found otherwise, it may be a result of the specific tuner you're listening to, and not the potential of the technology itself.
__________________
Primary sources: VPI TNT III/SDS turntable, SME-V arm; Bryston BDP-3 digital player; Bryston BDA-3 DAC; McIntosh MVP-881 disc player; McIntosh MR-80 tuner. Preamplifier Audio Research Ref 5SE; Audio Research Ref Phono 2SE; Moon 430 HA. Amplifiers Conrad Johnson Premier 1B; Audio Research D-300; Bryston 4B. Speakers Infinity IRS Beta. Recorders Tandberg TD20A; Crown SX-822; Nakamichi 670ZX; Alesis Masterlink ML-9600. Power Tice Power Block/Titan (x2); McIntosh MPC1500; API Ultra II-20; multiple 20A derated dedicated lines.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-11-2019, 09:24 AM
rnrmf1971 rnrmf1971 is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: orlando
Posts: 1,190
Default

I've had 3 different HD tuners at my residence. The sound quality has widely varied between these 3 tuners but comparing to satellite radio, in my experience, isn't even close. The high frequency "swirling" sound that I've always heard in satellite radio isn't present on HD1 broadcasts, by and large. That sound on satellite radio literally makes me uncomfortable.

My issue with HD tuners has been how unforgiving they sound. The little Sony was very round sounding but had a higher noise floor than the HD tuner implemented in the Marantz AV8802A processor that I currently use and enjoy, and would think is as good as HD radio can sound.

There was a Sony on Audiogon, yesterday, btw.
__________________
Christian

south: Mark Levinson No. 52 pre, Bricasti M28 amps, Lumin A1, Oppo BDP-205, Pioneer CT-43, Sony SS-AR1 Speakers, Audioquest Dragon PCs, Audioquest speaker cables, Audioquest interconnects, HB Power Design Powerslave Star Galaxy power distributor

north: Vitus SIA-030, Luxman D10X, Sony TC-KA3ES, Harbeth 40.2, Siltech cables
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-11-2019, 09:41 AM
W9TR's Avatar
W9TR W9TR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Neutral Zone
Posts: 4,665
Default

Clark, you asked about some of the specific artifacts HD radio produces and how it falls short.

From my listening with a Sony XDR-F1HD forced to analog only (no blend) vs HD1:

1. HD1 was unable to accurately reproduce massed strings on MPR 99.5 KSJN classical concerts.

2. On MPR A Prairie Home Companion I was unable to tell the difference between a new Martin guitar and a 50 y.o. Martin guitar both played by the company’s president. Both guitars sounded the same. On the analog main carrier the difference was clearly audible and I had a preference for the sound of the older guitar.

3. On HD1 I was unable to hear the hall sound on familiar classical recordings where it was clearly audible on the analog main carrier.

I sold the Sony XDR-F1HD and never looked back. HD radio is not a Hi-Fi medium.

HD radio is also the Camel’s nose under the tent in that Ibiquity has proposed an all-digital future with no analog main carrier - effectively obsoleting all of our analog tuners and removing the only hi-fi radio alternative we have.

Tom
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-11-2019, 10:03 AM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 107
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrmf1971 View Post
I've had 3 different HD tuners at my residence. The sound quality has widely varied between these 3 tuners but comparing to satellite radio, in my experience, isn't even close. The high frequency "swirling" sound that I've always heard in satellite radio isn't present on HD1 broadcasts, by and large. That sound on satellite radio literally makes me uncomfortable.

My issue with HD tuners has been how unforgiving they sound. The little Sony was very round sounding but had a higher noise floor than the HD tuner implemented in the Marantz AV8802A processor that I currently use and enjoy, and would think is as good as HD radio can sound..
Thanks, rnrmf1971 -- That's quite helpful. I have yet to hear good (that is, single-channel) HD in a quiet background on a good system. Sirius/XM, on the other hand, exhibits serious artifacts even in the car. I notice particularly on solo violins, and sometimes on solo piano, a high-frequency noise band that appears over the higher notes but that doesn't vary in frequency with the pitch of the notes -- some kind of peculiar processing artifact that, as you say, is quite unpleasant. I would not expect HD to sound that bad, based on the better codec they appear to be using, but the proof is in the listening... -- Clark2
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:08 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video