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Audio Research State of the Art Audio Reproduction

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Old 05-25-2021, 12:26 PM
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George Prentice George Prentice is offline
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Default Interesting comparison

My audio guy and I discussed the Berkeley Alpha 3 vs the ARC CD9se. It seemed on paper a likely upgrade. He had got one and let me borrow it. My prediction was that it would be natural sounding but more detailed and that I would decide it was worth the $5K additional cost.

The first thing that struck me was how similar they were. Way more similar than I ever would have guessed. I was able to level match the two since the Aurender can simultaneously drive two AES outputs. I would try and just listen to the music and once in a while I would hit some instrument or other sound I thought would be better on the Berkeley and I would switch... and nope, the other would sound the same. I spent a number of days with them.

There is a difference...the Berkeley is a tad more detailed... a tad... a small, itsy bit... tiny. There is a very very slight more warmth with the ARC in the midrange and bass... giving a little more weight to deep voice or instrument. But tiny. I could not identify which was playing if I didn’t know.

I brought down my partner whom is a female and hence has better hearing although not the interest. She said, she could just listen to the Audio Research forever and never get tired of it... more so than the Berkeley... while I don’t think she heard more details per say she is very sensitive to any high frequency distortion. But she also agreed they were so similar she could never pick out which was which... just too subtitle.

For fun my audio guy had left a pair of Nordsost Odin2 interconnects for me to try. So a $17K interconnect on a $17K component. So I tried on the ARC... and noticed no difference. I tried on the Berkeley and started noticing an improvement on the attack transiences... very subtile. But I was starting to see there would be more to discover. Once I hear some improvement or defect, I find it hard to unhear... and I wanted to quit before I found more... I really don’t want to go down the full weave of Odin2 interconnects and the Berkeley. But thinking about it in a practical way... if you are listening to the music and not the system, I’m not sure this incredibly small level of detail improvement would ever be noticable. I mean great for reviewers, but not for music listening... at least for me.

But the value of the ARC Ref CD9se really showed. It would be 100% sideways. The amount of additional detail, at least to me was, absolutely inconsequential. And the slight loss of natural warmth not a good thing.

My rule of thumb has always been to at least double the cost of a component to upgrade... and you get a “wow”. Otherwise, it is questionable of just different. I think the rule has been confirmed at this level for me.
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Main: Aurender W20SE music streamer, ARC REF 9SE DAC / CD, Linn LP 12, Koetsu Rosewood SignCartrige, ARC REF 3 Phono Stage, ARC REF 6SE Preamp, ARC 160s amp, Sonus Faber Amati Traditional Speakers,Transparent Ultra IC & SC Library:Aurender N100, Ayre QB9 2020 DAC, Woo WA5-LE amp upgraded tubes, Focal Utopia HP, Sennheiser 800s HP, LCD HP.

Last edited by George Prentice; 05-25-2021 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:08 PM
lem321 lem321 is offline
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George,

Thanks for that interesting comparison of the two DACs. It surprised me that there was so little difference in sound between the two. Although it was not surprising that the ARC 9SE was slightly warmer and maybe a bit less detailed vs. the Aurender. The addition of the Nordost Odin 2 for $17K "fortunately" was not a game changer. That's a deep, deep rabbit hole!

Wilson
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:24 PM
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Thanks George. We may be finally getting to the point where there aren’t substantive differences between high end DAC’s.
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:31 PM
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George... thank you for sharing.
Honest and valuable indeed.
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Old 05-25-2021, 11:22 PM
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Thanks guys... yeah, I really got a little panicky with the Nordost Odin2... a very expensive rabbit hole to fall down... narrowly averted.

On thing I forgot was that at first we tried connecting the Aurender to the Berkeley DAC via Nordost Valhalla SP/DIF. While it brought out better imaging than the ARC, it sounded brittle, etched, and really not good, a couple levels more obvious difference than the later comparisons using AES. We switched to AES using a Cardas Clear digital and it sounded great... like the ARC. I swapped the Transparent AES digital and Cardas AES digital between the Aurender and ARC DAC and Aurender and Berkeley DAC a couple times... no noticeable difference. So for some reason the Nordost Valhalla just wasn’t a good match for interconnecting the Aurender and the Berkeley... supports the old, “it depends”. I was surprised at that.

I would be interested in hearing if someone else has tried this comparison. Since all of my equipment with the exception of the streamer is Audio Research, that probably reinforced maintaining the ARC sound.
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Main: Aurender W20SE music streamer, ARC REF 9SE DAC / CD, Linn LP 12, Koetsu Rosewood SignCartrige, ARC REF 3 Phono Stage, ARC REF 6SE Preamp, ARC 160s amp, Sonus Faber Amati Traditional Speakers,Transparent Ultra IC & SC Library:Aurender N100, Ayre QB9 2020 DAC, Woo WA5-LE amp upgraded tubes, Focal Utopia HP, Sennheiser 800s HP, LCD HP.
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Old 05-26-2021, 04:27 PM
jakegt3 jakegt3 is offline
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Did you try both the "fast" and "slow" filtering modes of the CD9SE? The fast filter will provide a little more sense of detail and air. With most HD recordings I use the fast filter on my CD9 although the effect varies from one recording to another. When listening to regular CD's I generally don't use the fast filter because it tends to make the higher frequencies sound a bit gritty on most recordings.
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Old 05-31-2021, 11:52 AM
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My filter mode is set to fast. Thanks for your comments... I haven’t really compared settings. I don’t listen to CDs... I use my streamer 99%+ of the time.
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Old 06-01-2021, 10:13 PM
joey_v joey_v is offline
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The better question is how does your digital stack against your analog?
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joey_v View Post
The better question is how does your digital stack against your analog?

I find my digital end is fully satisfying... transparent, detailed, incredibly musical. My analog end is the same only slightly more detailed, and transparent. I get completely engrossed in my system with either end. If I feel a bit more nostalgic I’ll play an album... I have 2,000, most in pristine shape, many audiophile. But by far listen to my digital end the most... 90%+

The real important change with streaming that is audiophile quality is the whole world of music opens up... the WHOLE world. This is a paradym shift. The reason we listened so often to the same thing was because of the cost and difficulty... i used to save up for a month to buy an album. It is like going from film photography to digital. At first you do what you did... you wait around for a really unique opportunity to take a photo and only take one. After you get accustomed to it you take photos all the time... document all aspects take two of everything so one turns out. I took a one or two hundred photos a year with film and after the switch to digital over 10,000. My photography came alive once my behavior adapted to the new paradigm. I am now a great photographer... I was mediocre at best in the world of film. Streaming is the same kind of shift. Playing the same albums happens far less frequently as you learn how to explore. It is easy to add albums you like to your library (actually it just puts the location on your streamer) so when you want to listen to them again you can... but I find myself very seldom doing that. There is so much good music... past jazz greats in high Rez, world, electronic... classical... it is endless. It is a wonderful new world!
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Main: Aurender W20SE music streamer, ARC REF 9SE DAC / CD, Linn LP 12, Koetsu Rosewood SignCartrige, ARC REF 3 Phono Stage, ARC REF 6SE Preamp, ARC 160s amp, Sonus Faber Amati Traditional Speakers,Transparent Ultra IC & SC Library:Aurender N100, Ayre QB9 2020 DAC, Woo WA5-LE amp upgraded tubes, Focal Utopia HP, Sennheiser 800s HP, LCD HP.

Last edited by George Prentice; 06-04-2021 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Prentice View Post
I find my digital end is fully satisfying... transparent, detailed, incredibly musical. My analog end is the same only slightly more detailed, and transparent. I get completely engrossed in my system with either end. If I feel a bit more nostalgic I’ll play an album... I have 2,000, most in pristine shape, many audiophile. But by far listen to my digital end the most... 90%+

The real important change with streaming that is audiophile quality is the whole world of music opens up... the WHOLE world. This is a paradym shift. The reason we listened so often to the same thing was because of the cost and difficulty... i used to save up for a month to buy an album. It is like going from film photography to digital. At first you do what you did... you wait around for a really unique opportunity to take a photo and only take one. After you get accustomed to it you take photos all the time... document all aspects take two of everything so one turns out. I took a one or two hundred photos a year with film and after the switch to digital over 10,000. My photography came alive once my behavior adapted to the new paradigm. I am now a great photographer... I was mediocre at best in the world of film. Streaming is the same kind of shift. Playing the same albums happens far less frequently as you learn how to explore. It is easy to add albums you like to your library (actually it just puts the location on your streamer) so when you want to listen to them again you can... but I find myself very seldom doing that. There is so much good music... past jazz greats in high Rez, world, electronic... classical... it is endless. It is a wonderful new world!

Yes!
Best time ever for audiophiles indeed.
At home.
I'd like some live music again too.
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