New MCD12000

[Bob Bubeck]

Originally Posted by Thebenz

I would like to do a blindfolded test between it and the mcd600. (The Pepsi challenge for you old folks ��) I'm wondering what results that would net?

Fair enough. Neither I or the sales folk had the time to do this during my visit. From my first pass listen with excellent disks I know well, I feel that with the balanced tube output stage it betters my MCT500/DA2 combo. The MCD12000 is pretty tasty.

YMMV.

Bob
__________________________________________________ _____________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9” and Professional Power 24V; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes with Acoustic Diodes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent SBL2 XLR GEN 6 balanced and SSC8 GEN 6 speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record and CD maintenance : Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; L’Art du Son CD treatment.

[Thebenz]

Originally Posted by Bob Bubeck

Fair enough. Neither I or the sales folk had the time to do this during my visit. From my first pass listen with excellent disks I know well, I feel that with the balanced tube output stage it betters my MCT500/DA2 combo. The MCD12000 is pretty tasty.

YMMV.

Bob

Ok that is saying alot there. I'm guessing at some point someone on here is going to pull the trigger on one and give a scrutinized review!

[Vintage Pete]

While the MCD12000 is certainly impressive, I'd like to point one thing out that seems to be garnering little attention-that being the decision by McIntosh to omit one feature that has been present on many of their upper end CD players and/or DACS over quite a few years now. That being, an output level control.

Speaking for myself, I find this to be a rather glaring omission for a number of reasons. First we all know that recording levels on CD's vary wildly, from "soft" to very "hot" (loud). To have an output level control helps a lot with this, to maintain a consistent level feeding the system preamp.

Add to this that we've included the ever-popular nice big blue meters, but with no means to regulate the output level using these meters. Instead, we've utilized one of the only two knobs on the front to control lighting functions-which could have been done elsewhere, in the setup menus perhaps. This makes little if any sense to me, and says to me that hey, here's some nice meters just to look at, but that's really it. The same holds true with the new MR89 Tuner. Pretty meters to look at, but no level control.

The lack of an output level control has another disadvantage as it relates to my particular setup. I have for many years had a C40 preamp at the heart of my main system. Yes, it may be considered "vintage" by now. But, it's a superb sounding preamp, and is excellent for routing numerous analog sources as I do. But one thing it does lack is a remote control, or more specifically a remote volume capability.

When I added the MCD/MDA1000 combo to my setup, the remote controlled output level on the MDA1000 was a very welcome feature. While I still cannot control the volume of other sources from my listening chair, I can at least regulate the volume of my digital sources remotely via the MDA1000.

One could say, well gee Pete, why don't you just get with the program and buy a more up to date preamp? Well, I shouldn't have to for one thing. Switching facilities and other features may be another consideration and of course the cost.

To that I would say, why couldn't McIntosh have just included the (very useful) output level control, instead of wasting a knob on lights while giving us pretty meters that are really just to look at? And, I won't buy into any tired old arguments that are regularly trotted out about tone controls-that somehow the level control would compromise sonic quality.

Don't get me wrong, this is a beautiful component-and I confess to having visualized it in my system. Due to the cost, it is unlikely that I'll be purchasing one anytime soon. But if I did have the coin to shell out for a new MCD12000, the omission of the output level control could and does give me serious pause-and could even be a deal breaker.

[Maks]

Pete, I hear what you are saying, but perhaps they've omitted output level control for the same reason they don't put tone controls in their TOTL preamps. To keep the signal path more pure.

[Vintage Pete]

Originally Posted by Maks

Pete, I hear what you are saying, but perhaps they've omitted output level control for the same reason they don't put tone controls in their TOTL preamps. To keep the signal path more pure.

Maks....as I said...

Originally Posted by Vintage Pete

...And, I won't buy into any tired old arguments that are regularly trotted out about tone controls-that somehow the level control would compromise sonic quality.

[Charles]

Pete, I have to agree with Maks on this issue. A level control is a volume control. It does not belong on a reference SACD/CD player. Nor do tone controls belong on a reference pre.

It's not a tired old argument. A volume control is one of the most important controls and the most complicated to build. The Mac digital volume control fully implemented as in the C12000 is central to the sonic quality of the pre. The MCD600 has a volume control but is it of the same quality as the C2700?

I think it important to understand that the C12000 and MCD12000 are meant to be used as a unit. As such the volume should be matched ideally. Certainly there is no prohibition of buying one and not the other because they are fine stand alone units.

Many super expensive DAC's come with a rudimentary pre and it is common knowledge that if used as such, the sound is inferior to the typical DAC/pre, using a very fine pre. This is because I believe the pre inside the DAC to be somewhat of an afterthought.

For me, if I were interested in the C12000/MCD12000 no way would I want a separate level control and certainly not tone controls. If you want these additions Mac has provided them in very fine SACD/C2700 combo.

Mac used to provide a volume control on their power amps. They were wise to have discontinued this practice. The D1100 does have a balance control but it is difficult to access. Even a balance control on a reference unit is problematic, but most have it.

This new Mac gear: C12000/MCD12000 is competitive with anything on the market at any price as is the MC3500. I saw in TAS the CJART108A a 160 wat/ch mono amp. I am sure it is a very fine amp, but no meters or protection circuits, weight 89 lbs. 48K/pr.

Certainly, a MC3500 is competitive with this amp. For me, I would rather have it than any amp on the market today and note the 18K difference in price.

So a C12000/MCD12000 MC 3500/pr. represents absolute reference class signal path, competitive with anything on the market, at amazing value.

Because these units are so much less in price it's easy to confuse them with lesser gear and want the same flexibility as lesser gear offers. I have never heard an amp like the MC3500. It's just the best sonically I have ever heard and drives my XVX with total ease with no limit to dynamics, whereas the new CJ amp, could never remotely exploit the dynamic capabilities of an XVX.

Sorry I got a little of topic but this new gear Mac is putting out at these prices is quite amazing.

Best

Charles

[Vintage Pete]

Charles....that's fine, and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would have to counter however that what was at one time Mac's flagship series, the 1000 series, which included the C1000, the MCD/MDA1000 could be used as an example. The C1000 preamp combo did not have tone controls, but the MDA1000 did have a level control, which was by-passable if desired. That the control was by-passable make the argument moot in my opinion. The same could be said with regard to by-passable tone controls.

This is just my opinion of course. It's all good. They're beautiful products, and if I had the coin I would certainly consider them both. But in my current setup the omission of the level control is a problem if I just wanted to buy the MCD12000.

I would still posit that although beautiful to look at, I don't see a lot of need for the output level meters on a CD player, especially if one can't regulate the output anyway. They're not of much use but to look at.

I would note too that the D1100 is a "reference" unit, but does include a level control. Though I suppose this is because it is marketed as a "digital preamplifier" that could serve as a main pre in a digital-only system.

Again, it's all good....

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Vintage Pete

Charles....that's fine, and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would have to counter however that what was at one time Mac's flagship series, the 1000 series, which included the C1000, the MCD/MDA1000 could be used as an example. The C1000 preamp combo did not have tone controls, but the MDA1000 did have a level control, which was by-passable if desired. That the control was by-passable make the argument moot in my opinion. The same could be said with regard to by-passable tone controls.

This is just my opinion of course. It's all good. They're beautiful products, and if I had the coin I would certainly consider them both. But in my current setup the omission of the level control is a problem if I just wanted to buy the MCD12000.

I would still posit that although beautiful to look at, I don't see a lot of need for the output level meters on a CD player, especially if one can't regulate the output anyway. They're not of much use but to look at.

I would note too that the D1100 is a "reference" unit, but does include a level control. Though I suppose this is because it is marketed as a "digital preamplifier" that could serve as a main pre in a digital-only system.

Again, it's all good....

Pete, there is some utility in these output meters because they allow you to monitor the channels if there is a loss of output or a perceived difference/change in output. If you have them in the pre and amp also it makes it much easier to determine where the problem is. As far as the D1100 is concerned, it is the hub of my system. As such the volume control is an absolute necessity. The D1100 is really meant for the MCT5000 transport. When the new upgraded D1100 arrives that's when I'll be interested. The C1000 (I owned one) employed 4 separate digital volume controls because it was true dual mono and balanced. Two for each channel. I can tell you that your MDA1000 did not employ this. Although it is not stated this would be the configuration of the D1100 since it is true dual mono and fully balanced from input to output.

Mac has put a lot of thought into these current units. I can't think of a thing I would change, other than I am not a tube aficionado. I don't like vinyl or tubes. But I think Mac thinks tubes are superior and this would not prevent me from buying them but I prefer the SS D1100/MCT5000.

Best

Charles

[Vintage Pete]

Originally Posted by Charles

Pete, there is some utility in these output meters because they allow you to monitor the channels if there is a loss of output or a perceived difference/change in output. If you have them in the pre and amp also it makes it much easier to determine where the problem is. As far as the D1100 is concerned, it is the hub of my system. As such the volume control is an absolute necessity. The D1100 is really meant for the MCT5000 transport. When the new upgraded D1100 arrives that's when I'll be interested. The C1000 (I owned one) employed 4 separate digital volume controls because it was true dual mono and balanced. Two for each channel. I can tell you that your MDA1000 did not employ this. Although it is not stated this would be the configuration of the D1100 since it is true dual mono and fully balanced from input to output.

Mac has put a lot of thought into these current units. I can't think of a thing I would change, other than I am not a tube aficionado. I don't like vinyl or tubes. But I think Mac thinks tubes are superior and this would not prevent me from buying them but I prefer the SS D1100/MCT5000.

Best

Charles

Charles....good thoughts my friend.

I wasn't aware of an upgraded D1100 in the works.

When my MDA1000 problem occurred, my MC501 meters helped confirm what my ears were telling me. Meters on the DAC would have saved me a bit of troubleshooting effort. But, we hope to not have troubles!

I agree that removing the level pots from the amplifiers was a good move, or at least not a bad move. I don't miss them.

[Maks]

The C1000 also used to have a tape loop that the C12000 doesn't have. Time marches on and there's absolutely nothing wrong w/vintage equipment, but the amount of people buying a MCD12000 to hook up to a preamp that doesn't have a remote control probably numbers in the single digits.