Chiropractors and Acupuncturists - What's your experience

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by Amfibius

Sorry, but all chiropractors are quacks, in the same way that there is no such thing as a witch who can perform spells. Seeing a chiropractor to cure your ailment is the same as seeing a voodoo practitioner instead of a lawyer to correct an injustice. If the premise of your claim is wrong, and you base a profession on the claim, then your entire profession is wrong. Would you argue that only some homeopaths are wrong? Actually, every last one of them, down to a man, is wrong.

Here is a simple question for chiropractors. With medical imaging, we can measure bone alignment down to a very fine resolution. Has anybody done a study to document precisely what subluxations are associated with what disease, and shown CT and MRI evidence that the said subluxation exists? Or better still, a follow-up CT/MRI to show that the manipulation has corrected the subluxation?

Answer: no such thing.

Some (many) years back, I ran a summer course in Medical Neuroscience and had students from many different schools and disciplines attending for remediation or advancement. One summer, there was a group of chiropractic students who did well and were very engaged. As we worked our way through the anatomical basis of neurological deficits, they often came up afterward and asked about why I never mentioned subluxations. My reply was that I had never seen any evidence it had any relation to the deficits being discussed. That school never sent any students to us again.

[Handlebar]

Originally Posted by djwhog

wow that is a sad statement Amfibius

many times joints etc get out of alignment etc.

I am 51, have not been sick since age 18, take many supplements and lift weights 3-4 times a week.

Still squat free weight 500 lbs fr 15 reps and on many occasions from pushing sometimes a little too hard and once I was run over on my Harley from a truck had my ribs and arm reset rather than surgery.

There is a place for a knife and a Med Dr, but that should be the last attempt.

true dat.. ive been to both.. for some relief.. i still need surg.. ugh

[Pider]

You are going to get passionate responses on all sides of this discussion, especially where there is pain involved. Melinda has a "nephew" who does Rolfing massage, and she swears that she has never felt better than after his sessions, which I don't doubt. The issue is whether or not the approach provides a "cure" for what is causing the problem, or whether it simply provides some temporary relief of the pain. The latter isn't bad; it's just not a solution.

The reason I don't go to chiropractors or those with tiny needles is the same reason I don't go out and buy bucket fulls of supplements. I don't believe they work, or at least I don't see any evidence one way or the other that has anything to do with good science. However, doesn't mean they don't work. There's just no evidence, and I've never been one to go on faith when it comes to gulping down pills (well, at least not since the 70's).

On the other hand, I live in pain each and every day. I know where in my back the discs have bulged or otherwise deteriorated. I've eschewed surgery, thus far. It's getting bad enough though that the quality of life is being threatened. Before the knife, however, I may go let Adam, the "nephew", have a go. Or, go to the Providence spine clinic, which says on their website that non-invasive approaches will be tried before surgery. I like that. Non-invasive. Which probably means a combination of core strengthening, stretching of some type or discipline, and so on. This approach will fit with my beliefs in such things, and hopefully will lead to a lessening of the pain.

I'd start with the less potentially harmful approaches, such as yoga, massage, physical therapy with a reputable sports PT. If these don't get you what you want, then you might want to try a chiropractor. Surgery might actually be less of a risk than a bad chiropractor, but there might be a very talented, careful chiropractor out there whose techniques would be better than any surgery. Get some recommendations from your doc. S/he might be linked into the chiropractic network.

Just remember, snake-oil sales persons exist in great numbers, in all areas where a buck can be made and a non-critical thinking person can be pitched. Heck, without good snake-oil sales persons, where would our consumer-crazed economy be!

Good luck and good healing, man!

[Myles B. Astor]

Originally Posted by Amfibius

Correct. And the effect of this is precisely zero.



In other words, you are advocating that we go through a whole library of quacks who will utter new age mumbo-jumbo, do absolutely nothing to diagnose or alleviate the problem - at the risk of worsening the condition to a point of no return - before seeking medical attention?

(edit) I should probably say that every now and then I do go on a bit of a rant and I am sorry if I have caused offence. I thought about it a little and then realized that AA has a very high proportion of people who experience their lives subjectively. There are quite a few people here who use Shakti stones, Hallographs, and the like. Likewise, there are many calls to prayer for various things (e.g. the recent call for prayers for Robin Gibb). I believe in none of these things, but I say nothing to keep the peace and because these tweaks and overt expressions of religiosity are ultimately harmless.

However - choosing to see an alternative medical practioner is a different matter. You are not only wasting time and money, you are putting your health at risk.

Are you in the industry (an MD) or have first hand knowledge? I do though I'm not a chiro but a strength coach/personal trainer.

Perhaps you should know that most "modern" chiropractors practice bodywork not adjustment. For you to paint all chiros with one sweeping brush strokes really shows you really don't know anything about what they actually do.

Tell me: Do you understand the difference between structural and functional issues? Can you explain why structural approaches often fail? Or one person can be symptomatic and the other asymptomatic despite having the same issues and MRIs? Or anything about how the myofascial system works? Or soft tissue injuries? Or why back surgery has such a dismal record and yet, functional approaches can salvage what surgeons can't fix? You know you really need to read the scientific literature and there's a hell of a lot out there.

Start by picking up Warren Hammer's Bible of Soft Tissue Injuries along with Tom Myers book Anatomy Trains (his book goes to show you that anatomy is far from a dead science as we learned in school). Then also pick up Tom's other book dealing with integrated structural anatomy and really understand how the body works from a myofascial perspective eg. muscles are simply pockets of tissue embedded in a connective tissue matrix (go back and read a book on embryology and see how the arm buds form, the connective tissue grows out from the arm buds and then the muscle tissue grows within the connective tissue matrix). Tendons, ligaments and bones are really one and the same given different flexibilities.

Oh and our bodies are really like geodesic domes and if you shorten one part, something else has to lengthen to compensate ergo posture, something else chiros harp on. The only two things that have been postively linked in studies to lower back issue are postural issues (see Stuart McGill's book Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance; McGill is one of the pre-eminent spine biomechanics researchers and has disproved in his lab many commonly accepted beliefs about how the spine works) and and leg weakness. Strength has nothing to do with it.

[SuperD]

I have seen all 3.

Acupuncturist- He put so many needles in me I passed out. He said it was an "energy overload" and that I could not do it again. I'm Diabetic and assure you I have no issue with needles. He was also a Chiropractor...

Chiropractor- I felt I needed some adjustments due to muscle pain but I can't say it fixed anything or added more pain. I crack my knuckles and get some relief from that so I figured I would give it a try.

MD- Cortiszone shots - They masked the pain but they elevate blood sugar...not good for Diabetics.

I workout 5-6 days a week with weights and sometimes feel shoulder pain that will hang around for a couple months. The best therapy for me is a good deep-tissue massage every other week. Strength training will alleviate a lot of issues due to poor posture. Hit the gym, you won't regret it!!!

[Amfibius]

Hi Myles, I am an M.D. and an academic. In addition to several professional affiliations, I am also a member of "Friends of Science in Medicine" (a group of doctors who lobby against alternative medicine), and a member of the Skeptic Society. In my specialty, I regularly encounter plenty of patients who wish to pursue alternative therapies. I would consider myself reasonably well informed when it comes to alternative therapies.

Re: your point whether regarding the difference between a functional and structural problem. There is a difference between plausibility and proof. Plausibility is enough to market something to people who do not know better. But if you want to convince a professional, you need proof. If chiropractors want to gain credibility, then propose a mechanism and do experiments to prove it. The field of medicine is littered with thousands of drugs and therapies that sounded scientifically plausible but failed to show any evidence of efficacy. This is to say nothing of these mysterious nerves that seem to have no anatomical correlation.

Take, for example, a patient who told me that she wanted to go to China to receive a stem cell injection for Parkinson's. My antenna immediately went up - as far as I am aware, this treatment is still in preliminary phase trials and there is no evidence that it would work when injected into an actual human being. Of course it sounds plausible - Parkinsons is a disease of Dopamine deficiency. Inject someone with cells that will implant themselves in your body and produce Dopamine, and you have a cure. But there is no proof that the cells will actually take hold, and not simply be killed by your immune system. That is the difference between plausibility and proof.

In this thread I have deliberately avoided criticizing people who have submitted anecdotal evidence that alternative therapies work for them. Of that, I have no doubt. And it is not fair for an MD to be picking fights with people who are not trained in the discipline. I hope you do not feel that I am criticizing any of you personally, because I am not.

But since we are submitting anecdotes, here is another one of mine.

Steve Jobs was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2003. Fortunately for him, he did not have an adenocarcinoma (likelihood of death in 1 year = 98%). He had an islet cell NET, or neuroendocrine tumor. The standard treatment is immediate surgery followed by chemotherapy - if this is performed, there is a good chance of cure depending on how advanced the cancer is. So what did Steve do? Ignore the advice of his doctors, go on a vegan diet, take herbal supplements, consult a psychic, etc. - because he did not want his body violated.

Result: cancer spreads and is now considered incurable. At this point he gives in and accepts standard medical treatment.

What happened to Steve Jobs should be a salutary lesson to everyone who is considering treatment with alternative medicine. It does not work. Trust me, if there was evidence that chiropractors were more effective than placebo, I would be sending you to see a chiropractor.

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by Amfibius

Sorry, but all chiropractors are quacks, in the same way that there is no such thing as a witch who can perform spells. Seeing a chiropractor to cure your ailment is the same as seeing a voodoo practitioner instead of a lawyer to correct an injustice. If the premise of your claim is wrong, and you base a profession on the claim, then your entire profession is wrong. Would you argue that only some homeopaths are wrong? Actually, every last one of them, down to a man, is wrong.

Here is a simple question for chiropractors. With medical imaging, we can measure bone alignment down to a very fine resolution. Has anybody done a study to document precisely what subluxations are associated with what disease, and shown CT and MRI evidence that the said subluxation exists? Or better still, a follow-up CT/MRI to show that the manipulation has corrected the subluxation?

Answer: no such thing.

Chiropractors are down there somewhere with homepaths, crystal practitioners, iridologists, kineseologists, and so on. These people lack medical training - they can not recognize your condition, and they can not treat it. There are multiple case reports of cancers going undetected whilst time is wasted seeing these quacks.

Like I said - if you were only wasting time and money, I would let you. But these people actually cause harm through neglect - which is why I am saying something.



If it makes you feel better, I didn't call them a quake either. I tend to reserve that word for things that shake.



Don't worry bzr I reserve nearly as much bile for the members of my own profession as I do for chiropractors. There are plenty of things wrong with medical practice which renders treatment far less effective than they should be. There is also a difference between "proof" in context of study and "intention to treat" type studies. Many of the benefits of drugs in closed studies tend to disappear when applied in the real world in ways which are not obvious to people who are not physicians. Then there is the whole addiction of medical practitioners to the technology of medicine, with too little focus on the human aspect of medicine. I could go on and on

You forgot four important initials... IMHO

[Jerome W]

Alberto,
Sorry to hear about your cervical pain.
I suffer from it from time to time and it is very debilitating.
I don't believe in chiropractors. No scientific evidence of what they do Acupuncture is ok to fight the pain but won't make the cause of the pain disappear. Acupuncture effects have been scientifically proven by RMI of the brains.
I have seen an osteopath who helped me a lot.
Cervical pain, like all back pains, is anyway very much related to anxiety, depression and general mental well being.
I have discovered that when I want to be happy and fight negative feelings, my back pains vanish.
Are you ok in your work and your personal life these days ?
Hope you'll be better very soon my friend.

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[Still-One]

Remember whether it is a MD, DO or Chiropractor 1 out of every 2 finished in the bottom half of their class. Good Luck

JIm

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Remember whether it is a MD, DO or Chiropractor 1 out of every 2 finished in the bottom half of their class. Good Luck

JIm

This is funny Jim.
Now wait. I always say to my friends " what is a MD who passed each year in France with just the minimum points ( 10/20) ?? An average MD ! At least in some countries, you do not pass in the next year without less than 13/20....

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