McIntosh Solid State vs VTL with Sashas

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Stillone

Serge
I think you are overstating the problems Sasha's present to many tube amps. What happens in our listening rooms can be very different from equipment placed under test conditions.
Jim

Jim, my opinion was based on what I've learned based on listening sessions over the years followed up by curiousity and learning as to why I heard what I heard. Oh and I've had my share of tube amps come through my system for extensive listening too. My opinion still stands until the day I hear a tube amp that does drive the Sasha to perfection, at which point I would share my findings. And of course everyone is free to experiment and choose whatever form of amplification they desire with their Sasha's. Dave said he was not satisfied with MC2301s although he didn't specify if it was the bass?

I clearly heard what I heard with Sasha at both my dealer with various amps and in my own system with Lamm. The rest is up to the owner of Sasha's to decide and share with us.

[JSCC]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Having said all that, I also noticed a bit of bloat and loss of grip from Sasha even when driven by solid state Ayre MX-Rs but like I said before, it was a rather large room and we were letting the Sasha's really boogie.

Hi Serge,

Since you are into the Maxx 3, would you advise if the Ayre's combo would have a problem with the Sasha's as they would with Maxx 3? I think the Maxx would be kinder .... ?

This information is important to my plans. Thanks.

Cheers!

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by JSCC

Hi Serge,

Since you are into the Maxx 3, would you advise if the Ayre's combo would have a problem with the Sasha's as they would with Maxx 3? I think the Maxx would be kinder .... ?

This information is important to my plans. Thanks.

Cheers!

Jerry, the Maxx 3 is less demanding for sure. The MX-R and Sasha should not have a problem either in a smaller room where you are not going to drive them as hard. My dealer's room is quite large and we were playing great dynamic range recordings. I do have to say, I was listening the the KX-R/MX-R/Sasha pair again the other day and in that fully treated room it is so damn sweet... I still like the more natural sound of Lamm and Sasha but I could also live with the Ayre pairing and be very happy.

[JSCC]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jerry, the Maxx 3 is less demanding for sure. The MX-R and Sasha should not have a problem either in a smaller room where you are not going to drive them as hard. My dealer's room is quite large and we were playing great dynamic range recordings. I do have to say, I was listening the the KX-R/MX-R/Sasha pair again the other day and in that fully treated room it is so damn sweet... I still like the more natural sound of Lamm and Sasha but I could also live with the Ayre pairing and be very happy.

Thanks Serge. Now I have one advise to keep when looking around when the time cometh.

[daveneumann]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Dave said he was not satisfied with MC2301s although he didn't specify if it was the bass?

Hi Serge,

Yes, it was the bass that did not sound right with the MC2301's. The mid's and highs were excellent, but the bass was boomy and disconnected from the rest of the music. It is the first time I experienced the Sashas as not being coherent. I had previously heard the Sashas in 3 other showrooms with different associated electronics and in every other case the bass was excellent. So in the case of the dealer using the MC2301's it was either speaker set up or the amps.

I am going to make it a point to audition the Sashas with Lamm. Where is your dealer located? Maybe its time for a road trip!

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by daveneumann

Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.
Jerome - very insightful question, "What am I missing?" That is always a good place to start when considering a change. Actually, the only thing I think I might be missing is some midrange dimensionality and layering that tubes have given me in other systems. But mainly, I am just curious about having a tube amp to switch back and forth for a different presentation.

Stillone - When I auditioned the Sashas with McIntosh 2301's at a dealers showroom the mids and highs were great but the bass was a little boomy and slightly disconnected from the rest of the music. Maybe it was set-up?

intouch1 - thanks for the thoughts on the ARC 210's. They are also on my short list.

Regards,

Dave

Dave,

So you're changing your amp for the same reason why I changed my 501's.
I can't imagine the bass of the 2301's being boomy but if you say so I believe you 100 %. AMP / SPEAKERS synergy is a complex thing and everything can happen.
Saying that, I believe you're really due for an upgrade. The 402, like the 501's are great amps. But the Sasha deserve amps in a higher league like the 1.2kW or the 2301's or the Ayre MX-R and so on.
Did you give a listen to Manley and Jadis amps ?
Did you think about an active biamping solution, keeping the 402 for the bass and adding a tube amp for mids and treble with an active filter ? I think that the result with my speakers would have been very good with the 501's on the bass and a pair of 275's for mids and treble, with the RP1 ( or MEN220) used as an active filter. Setting up is probably touchy because of the differences in gain between SS and tube amps, but once done correctly, this could be very close to the 2301 performance, or much better if you like "punchy" bass.
I'm quite sure that a well set-up active McIntosh system with both SS and tube amps could sound just like heaven and beat many other high end amps costing much much more.
I like tuneful bass and the 2301's give me a richer bass than the 501's. But it is surely a less punchy bass, maybe not the best one could look for with Rock and Modern music. For more intimate and instrumental music, or for classical, I prefer the bass of the 2301's.

Cheers,
Jerome

[Cellindo]

Originally Posted by daveneumann

Hi Serge,

Yes, it was the bass that did not sound right with the MC2301's. The mid's and highs were excellent, but the bass was boomy and disconnected from the rest of the music. It is the first time I experienced the Sashas as not being coherent. I had previously heard the Sashas in 3 other showrooms with different associated electronics and in every other case the bass was excellent. So in the case of the dealer using the MC2301's it was either speaker set up or the amps.

I am going to make it a point to audition the Sashas with Lamm. Where is your dealer located? Maybe its time for a road trip!

Wilson SASHA driven by NAGRA 845 tubed mono amps also exhibited the issue of 'disconnected' bass. Preamp was NAGRA as well and source a dCS Puccini + U-Clock.

I think not every tube amps are equally capable of mastering the Sasha impedance dip

ps: my three other auditions of Sasha W/P with LAMM or Audio Research or Plinius (best combination to date) had no issue at all

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by C220MC275

Dave,

So you're changing your amp for the same reason why I changed my 501's.
I can't imagine the bass of the 2301's being boomy but if you say so I believe you 100 %. AMP / SPEAKERS synergy is a complex thing and everything can happen.
Saying that, I believe you're really due for an upgrade. The 402, like the 501's are great amps. But the Sasha deserve amps in a higher league like the 1.2kW or the 2301's or the Ayre MX-R and so on.
Did you give a listen to Manley and Jadis amps ?
Did you think about an active biamping solution, keeping the 402 for the bass and adding a tube amp for mids and treble with an active filter ? I think that the result with my speakers would have been very good with the 501's on the bass and a pair of 275's for mids and treble, with the RP1 ( or MEN220) used as an active filter. Setting up is probably touchy because of the differences in gain between SS and tube amps, but once done correctly, this could be very close to the 2301 performance, or much better if you like "punchy" bass.
I'm quite sure that a well set-up active McIntosh system with both SS and tube amps could sound just like heaven and beat many other high end amps costing much much more.
I like tuneful bass and the 2301's give me a richer bass than the 501's. But it is surely a less punchy bass, maybe not the best one could look for with Rock and Modern music. For more intimate and instrumental music, or for classical, I prefer the bass of the 2301's.

Cheers,
Jerome

Jerome, Sasha's are not designed to be bi or tri-amped. While they do appear to have three sets of binding posts, doing so would bypass the crossover in them eliminating the time and phase alignment built into it. It would be nearly impossible to achieve the same result with any electronic crossover as there are just too many unknowns.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Cellindo

Wilson SASHA driven by NAGRA 845 tubed mono amps also exhibited the issue of 'disconnected' bass. Preamp was NAGRA as well and source a dCS Puccini + U-Clock.

I think not every tube amps are equally capable of mastering the Sasha impedance dip

ps: my three other auditions of Sasha W/P with LAMM or Audio Research or Plinius (best combination to date) had no issue at all

Was it a Plinius SA-Reference? I think just about any well designed Class A amp would sound great with Sasha.

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Was it a Plinius SA-Reference? I think just about any well designed Class A amp would sound great with Sasha.

The Sasha's did sound pretty good with the Esoteric A-03 unit during a recent quick listen.