Next Upgrade

[McMan]

The Rel No. 31 would look beautiful with the Nova V.

JL Audio is fantastic too.

https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoof...-series/no-31/

[McMan]

Video on the Rel subwoofers with Sonus Faber Serafino G2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLcSL4hXgSY&t=170s

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by FreddieFerric

BTW, Stephen (Puma) is 100% right on room acoustics. It should not be overlooked.

Yup.

The room acoustics are the No. 1 most important factor. Trying different "flavors" of tubes, or comparing Reference Platinum Signature vs. Reference Platinum Signature Extreme versions of the same basic amp design, etc., are not going have anything like the influence that the room acoustics will have on what's heard by the listener.

This is exactly why the BBC developed a set of very accurate monitors, e.g. the LS3/5, LS3/5a series, etc., that were used in "near-field" set-ups when monitoring the recording of live BBC performances: to take the influence of the room acoustics "out of the equation" and obtain the most accurate recordings.

It's physics at the end of the day, and....there's no getting around physics.

[McMan]

Absolutely. A properly designed and treated room will profoundly affect the entire frequency spectrum.

Alan Wolf's opinion and mine is dual subwoofers, "Having a subwoofer, in additiion to a full frequency speaker, in a different point in the room than where the speakers are, will always improve the sound. It helps mitigating room modes, which no matter how good the room is, no matter how low the speakers go, you'll always have these room modes. The only way to balance them or mitigate them is to project bass from other places in the room. That's why you want a subwoofer even on a full range loudspeaker.

Then Alan is asked the question, So maybe a subwoofer is the most affordable way to get a better system? His answer is absolutely.

My path is to dial the subwoofers using the proper software and room measurements and then develop a plan for proper treatments for that specific room based on in room measurements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtC7VMcJkVY&t=28s

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by McMan

Absolutely. A properly designed and treated room will profoundly affect the entire frequency spectrum.

Alan Wolf's opinion and mine is dual subwoofers, "Having a subwoofer, in additiion to a full frequency speaker, in a different point in the room than where the speakers are, will always improve the sound. It helps mitigating room modes, which no matter how good the room is, no matter how low the speakers go, you'll always have these room modes. The only way to balance them or mitigate them is to project bass from other places in the room. That's why you want a subwoofer even on a full range loudspeaker.

Then Alan is asked the question, So maybe a subwoofer is the most affordable way to get a better system? His answer is absolutely.

My path is to dial the subwoofers using the proper software and room measurements and then develop a plan for proper treatments for that specific room based on in room measurements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtC7VMcJkVY&t=28s

"Bang on", as the Brits say...

I wasn't thinking about the impact subs can play when writing about the importance of room acoustics, but you are absolutely right about how they can play a key role in "balancing" the acoustical response in the room, so many thanks.

So...how about some data demonstrating exactly your point?

For our example, let's use the Harman curve as our "orthogonal reference" for a response curve that, based on psychoacoustics, is perceived by the listener to have a "flat" in-room response.


Now...here's the actual, in-room response for the R-channel* using a NIST-traceable calibrated mic at the listening position (including height). The blue trace is without the REL sub in the system, and the green trace is with the REL sub in the system (after I optimized it's settings by performing a DOE†). Note how the actual, in-room FR curve with the sub in place is much closer to the Harman curve than without the sub. Clearly demonstrating your point with...data.


You can also see adding and setting REL sub's output based on the DOE allowed me to remove some pretty significant "peaks and nulls" that were part the in-room response before adding the sub into the system, smoothing out actual in-room response pretty significantly.

Don'tcha just love...real SCIENCE?



*–obtained similar results when measuring the L channel.

†-DOE: Design of Experiments; a robust real-world data based analysis method based on ANOVA that lets the experimenter simultaneously analyze the impact of multiple "control factors" on the "response" with statistical rigor, including the influence of interactions between the control factors.

[McMan]

Yeppers

[knotscott]

Originally Posted by TD 1958

Thanks all - big help. Lot's of things to consider on my journey - exciting process.

YB-2 - Thanks, sounds like an easy switch. New tubes it is.

John - I have not heard the 275, but there seems to be more than a few people that prefer the tube amps. I'll need to do a tube/SS comparison when I go amp shopping. I need to check CD player for digital out. I forget the AR model. I bought in mid-70s, 3-way bookshelf.

McMan - all good thoughts. I'm strictly music. I have the MB50 streamer. I don't care for the Play-Fi app.

Count me as one of them, but unless you can afford a Convergent (CAT) level tube amp, you might want to consider doing some horizontal bi-amping with a good clear tube amp on the mids/tweeters, and an SS amp on the woofers. Best of both worlds IMO, even if you keep it passive.

I've been refining my current system for over 30 years. The conversion from my two Dyna/VTA monoblocks running in a vertical bi-amp mode, to a horizontal bi-amp setup that uses an SS integrated amp on the main woofers @ ~ 80hz, and the tube amps on the mids and tweeters has been one of the most significant changes of all. Shortly after, I also bypassed the woofer's low pass passive crossover, and installed an active low pass from 80hz down, but even before I got that far, the addition of the SS integrated to woofer, in conjunction with the tubes up top was pretty significant.

Sorry I'm so late to the post, but it's food for thought.

[jfray]

Room acoustics are important but it’s speaker placement that is the most important step many audiophiles don’t do properly……. I will call this step #0 and too many room treatments can make things sound dead. It’s a balance but to treat a room it’s an art / science and more than hanging random treatments on the wall (obviously nobody on this forum is doing but that but it’s on the edge of an upgrade vs new room design).