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  #331  
Old 07-30-2022, 06:53 PM
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And the next best sounding tube amp that Mc makes is the 1502. (Sorry, had to throw that in)
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  #332  
Old 08-05-2022, 08:40 AM
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  #333  
Old 03-12-2023, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Lew, absolute congrats! You will not be disappointed. My opinion is that these amazing amps just happen to be the finest tube amps in today's world. I believe they are the most powerful and are more powerful than many SS "super amps". I have always believed in the Agostino Rule: unless an amp is truly pure Class A, for a SS amp to sound its best, it should operate at no more than 10% its rated power.

For a 1.25KW, this would be a maximum of about 140-150 watts, which is adequate for most source material. So since the 3500 will do over 500 watts, it is a considerably more powerful amp. SS amps have a tendency to sound hard when pushed, whereas tube amps remain sonically consistent at clipping.

IMO, the exception to the Agostino Rule is the Class-A SS amp. Many amps that purport to be "true Class-A" aren't. The Accuphase A-250 is true Class-A. But look at the wattage you get: 100 watts at 8 ohms true Class-A. Pass Labs XS300 is another true Class-A amp: 300 watts at 8-ohms, weighs in at 306 lbs/ch and 900 wats power consumption when not in idle. There are other Class-A amps. These amps, IMO, do not become hard or change sonically when pushed to clipping.

This is why "tube watts" are considered more powerful than "solid state watts". However, even most true Class A amps become Class-AB as they approach clipping and thus avoid clipping.

The weakness of virtually all tube amps is an ultimate lack of power. Ultimately watts really are watts as demonstrated by the below pic. No tube amp other than a MC3500 will play this cut at a high level. It will blow them up. But any high-powered SS amp will easily handle the drum on this Wilson CD: Winds of War and Peace: Liberty Fanfare. Now if you are foolish enough to play this through your system at a high level, be prepared to blow up your amps and speakers. :yes

It is impossible to catch the maximum needle excursion, but it certainly is over 400 watts. Volume 68% D-1100. It is loud. Many SS amps will buckle with this drum. No tube amp other than a MC3500 will handle this drum. It will blow it up, literally.



Best

Charles

p.s. the VAC Statement 452i Monoblock rated at 450w/ch, clips at 183 watts into a 4-ohm load. A pair will run you 150K. Reviewed by MF, 4/18, Stereophile:

"VAC specifies the Statement 452 iQ's maximum power when used as a monoblock as 450W into 4 ohms (23.5dBW). With our usual definition of clipping, which is when the output's percentage of THD+noise reaches 1%, the VAC clipped at 235W into 8 ohms (23.7dBW, fig.4, footnote 1). However, less power was available into 4 ohms at 1% THD+N: 183W (19.6dBW, fig.5), though 370W was available at 3% THD+N (22.7dBW) and 410W at 10% THD+N (23.1dBW)."

Many tube amps will only barely meet their published specs. Going back to the 1960's, all Mac tube amps are guaranteed to meet or exceed their published specs for the life of the amp.
Charles:

How do you think our MC3500s would compare to a pair of ARC 750 SELs?
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  #334  
Old 03-14-2023, 12:41 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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LewL, I have been reliably told that the MC3500 is tested at 500 watts before being shipped. I was told that Mac had to call their new amp the MC3500 for obvious reasons, notwithstanding the fact it will do much more easily.

However, in regards to the ARC 750 SEL's, they are clearly more powerful than the 3500. But they are not practical. They are true room heaters and absolutely huge. Compared to the 750, the 3500 is quite small and runs very cool. It is definitely not a room heater. But the 750 is the King, IMO.

The new ARC 320 will do 320 watts per channel but probably not anymore. That would be enough for most folks but not for me. There is nothing closed or restricted in the mids or treble with the 3500 when run through WEL Signature solid silver and Dragon power cords. The bass is simply the best I have heard.

If you ever heard an original MC240 or MC275 through a Bozak Concert Grand, it's the sound I have, except more full range. These amps had bass in steroids. Not boomy or uncontrolled at all, and the most open midrange and beautiful treble. This is what you get with a 3500/XVX.

I might add that this is why I'm not particularly a fan of the hybrid drive. I think any modern Mac tube amp will have great bass. This was the quality that separated the original MC240 from its competitors. As far as I know firms like ARC must outsource their output transformers and they "upgrade" their transformers on occasion. McIntosh is the only manufacturer that makes theirs from scratch, and they have never changed to my knowledge. They can't be duplicated by other companies.

Best

Charles
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Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
New gear on order: MC2.1KW Anniversary power amplifier; C12000 An preamplifier; MCD12000 An SACD/CD player; AQ 1 meter Dragon balanced IC; 2 meter AQ Hurricane HC power cord; 3 meter AQ Hurricane Source power cord; unspecified 3 meter AQ digital coaxial IC and power cord for my backup MVP851 DVD player given as a surprise gift to me by my dealer
Most recent updates: Latest is the last one posted: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals; heating and cooling completely reworked and reinsulated resulting in a much quieter, cooler, and more efficient room (cost about 10,000.00). McIntosh MCT 500 SACD/CD transport; Wilson Audio Acoustic Diode for XVX Chronosonic; WEL Signature digital Coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection replacing the optical connection; New plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; Thor is now off my floor; MC3500MKII mono block amps (2) and two custom granite slabs; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover; new 75-ohm multi-directional FM antenna for tuner; total of eight additional Wilson Audio Heavy (red) pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks; JRiver Media Center 31
Amps: McIntosh MC3500MKII mono blocks (2), McIntosh MC1.25KW’s (3). All amps set on floor on custom made granite slabs
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCT500 SACD/CD Transport, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 31)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; custom made Wilson Acoustic Diodes
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie; custom plinth of X material with Wilson Acoustic Diode feet; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables main system: Audioquest WEL Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); WEL Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; WEL Signature digital coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for MVP 851 DVD player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Audioquest Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for MR87 tuner
Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from ActivXO crossover to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to ActivXO; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals for D1100; MVP881 BR player; MCT500 transport; Wilson Audio ActivXO electronic subwoofer crossover; plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; eight Wilson Audio Heavy (red) Pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks (four placed under the rails of each amp)
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump.

Last edited by Charles; 03-14-2023 at 12:50 PM.
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  #335  
Old 03-14-2023, 03:02 PM
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FreddieFerric FreddieFerric is offline
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750 watts of tube power is for those who live in the frozen tundra.
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  #336  
Old 03-14-2023, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieFerric View Post
750 watts of tube power is for those who live in the frozen tundra.
Which is why ARC is in Minnesota.
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Main System:
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Amati Homage VOX Center,
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Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

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Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

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  #337  
Old 03-14-2023, 05:09 PM
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FreddieFerric FreddieFerric is offline
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Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Which is why ARC is in Minnesota.
Wonder how many units they ship out to the tropics?
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McIntosh MA8000; McIntosh MC1502; Canton Vento Reference 1 DC; E.A.T. E-Flat; Soundsmith Paua Mk II; Technics SL 1210 MK5; Audio Technica AT-150 MLX; Tascam BR-20; Teac X1000R; Pioneer RT-707; Oppo UDP 205; Denon DCD A-100; HP All-In-One Touchscreen Server; JRiver MC 28; Woo Audio WA6; Shure SRH 1840; SVS SB 1000; Jolida 502BRC; Jolida JD9; VPI 16.5 RCM; Wireworld Oasis 8 Speaker Cables; Audoquest Columbia 72 DBS IC's; Panamax PM-5400 (source components only)
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  #338  
Old 03-15-2023, 12:08 AM
LewL LewL is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
LewL, I have been reliably told that the MC3500 is tested at 500 watts before being shipped. I was told that Mac had to call their new amp the MC3500 for obvious reasons, notwithstanding the fact it will do much more easily.

However, in regards to the ARC 750 SEL's, they are clearly more powerful than the 3500. But they are not practical. They are true room heaters and absolutely huge. Compared to the 750, the 3500 is quite small and runs very cool. It is definitely not a room heater. But the 750 is the King, IMO.

The new ARC 320 will do 320 watts per channel but probably not anymore. That would be enough for most folks but not for me. There is nothing closed or restricted in the mids or treble with the 3500 when run through WEL Signature solid silver and Dragon power cords. The bass is simply the best I have heard.

If you ever heard an original MC240 or MC275 through a Bozak Concert Grand, it's the sound I have, except more full range. These amps had bass in steroids. Not boomy or uncontrolled at all, and the most open midrange and beautiful treble. This is what you get with a 3500/XVX.

I might add that this is why I'm not particularly a fan of the hybrid drive. I think any modern Mac tube amp will have great bass. This was the quality that separated the original MC240 from its competitors. As far as I know firms like ARC must outsource their output transformers and they "upgrade" their transformers on occasion. McIntosh is the only manufacturer that makes theirs from scratch, and they have never changed to my knowledge. They can't be duplicated by other companies.

Best

Charles
I haven’t heard the ARC 750s, but I love my MC3500. Definitely not a room heater. Very surprised at how much heat they do not generate. Would love to hear them with some big Wilsons. The 3500s sound great with Focal Scalas. Also sound great with Harbeths.
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  #339  
Old 03-15-2023, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieFerric View Post
Wonder how many units they ship out to the tropics?
With island power costs between $0.50 and $0.99 per kWh, along with the heat, I’d say not very many!

In Minnesota they are just another couple of much needed space heaters.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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  #340  
Old 03-15-2023, 12:14 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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There was a pair of 5 year old 750's with 660 hours on the existing tube set selling for 19,750 dollars. It came with a new tube set with genuine ARC tubes valued at 11K. I would have thought that it would have sold for twice that. Your getting it essentially for the price of the new tube set. There's also a VAC Statement 452 (one amp) IQ for 37K, retail price 75K.

This amp is rated at 450 watts/ch mono. Here's the actual: VAC specifies the Statement 452 iQ's maximum power when used as a monoblock as 450W into 4 ohms (23.5dBW). With our usual definition of clipping, which is when the output's percentage of THD+noise reaches 1%, the VAC clipped at 235W into 8 ohms (23.7dBW, fig.4, footnote 1). However, less power was available into 4 ohms at 1% THD+N: 183W (19.6dBW, fig.5), though 370W was available at 3% THD+N (22.7dBW) and 410W at 10% THD+N (23.1dBW). I doubt that this shortfall in maximum power into 4 ohms would have affected the auditioning. Given the high sensitivity of the Wilson speakers, Michael was never asking the amplifiers to deliver more than 40W or so.

This is why I say that for practical purposes, the 3500 is the King. If I were VAC I'd be embarrassed by such a poor showing on the test bench. MF must play his music very softly. His DarTZeel NHB-468 tested out at: With that caution in mind and with "clipping" defined as when the THD+noise reaches 1%, I found that the NHB-468 clipped at 216W into 16 ohms (26.2dBW, fig.4), 398W into 8 ohms (26.0dBW, fig.5), 205W into 4 ohms (201.1dBW, fig.6), and 101W into 2 ohms (140dBW, fig.7). In each case, the amplifier's protection circuitry operated soon after the THD+N reached 1%. This amplifier offers high powers into higher impedances, but regarding the reduction in ultimate power into lower impedances, Hervé had explained in one of his emails that the 468's circuit is optimized for loads of 6 ohms, with the distribution of power "as if we would always work into the SOA (Safe Operation Area), not only for the output devices, but for the entire amplifier circuit design."

I play my XVX soft. I play it loud. I play it super loud. The 3500 handles my XVX easily. My XVX has a sensitivity of 92 dB. It loafs at 350 watts/ch. I have never heard it compress the sound. Speakers sound loud (tear at the ears) because they suffer dynamic compression. With my 3500 it has the best bass, best midrange, best treble I have heard without going into details. The min impedance is 1.6 ohms. My 3500 gets mildly warm when I listen to roller skating music at 300 plus watts/ch. I love the Drifters, Supremes, O'Jays, The Rascals, etc. You've never heard "In the Midnight Hour" until you hear it at 350 watts through an XVX.

Last night I skated on the wood for 3 hours, no break. I'm known as "Dr. Charles" on the wood. I have special t-shirts. I have made more friends than you can imagine. Pivots are very difficult. I can string two 360 degree pivots together quite nicely. I'm 74 years old but my friends treat me like I'm 30. T-Stacks Frank skates at my rink virtually every night. I see him every night. He one of the best in America. When I see my physician they ask if I have any falls. I say yes I fell 3 times last week, roller skating.

One may debate other specs but my XVX needs watts. It's an absolutely massive speaker. Its crossover weighs 45 lbs. The test bench exposes these so called high end ultra amps as "Emperors Without Clothes", i.e., "Without Watts" and also exposes deficiencies of reviewers. Either one of these amps would clip severely with me with my XVX.

I have respect for ARC. I think they are an excellent company and make superb gear.

Best

Charles
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Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
New gear on order: MC2.1KW Anniversary power amplifier; C12000 An preamplifier; MCD12000 An SACD/CD player; AQ 1 meter Dragon balanced IC; 2 meter AQ Hurricane HC power cord; 3 meter AQ Hurricane Source power cord; unspecified 3 meter AQ digital coaxial IC and power cord for my backup MVP851 DVD player given as a surprise gift to me by my dealer
Most recent updates: Latest is the last one posted: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals; heating and cooling completely reworked and reinsulated resulting in a much quieter, cooler, and more efficient room (cost about 10,000.00). McIntosh MCT 500 SACD/CD transport; Wilson Audio Acoustic Diode for XVX Chronosonic; WEL Signature digital Coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection replacing the optical connection; New plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; Thor is now off my floor; MC3500MKII mono block amps (2) and two custom granite slabs; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover; new 75-ohm multi-directional FM antenna for tuner; total of eight additional Wilson Audio Heavy (red) pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks; JRiver Media Center 31
Amps: McIntosh MC3500MKII mono blocks (2), McIntosh MC1.25KW’s (3). All amps set on floor on custom made granite slabs
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCT500 SACD/CD Transport, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 31)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; custom made Wilson Acoustic Diodes
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie; custom plinth of X material with Wilson Acoustic Diode feet; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables main system: Audioquest WEL Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); WEL Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; WEL Signature digital coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for MVP 851 DVD player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Audioquest Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for MR87 tuner
Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from ActivXO crossover to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to ActivXO; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals for D1100; MVP881 BR player; MCT500 transport; Wilson Audio ActivXO electronic subwoofer crossover; plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; eight Wilson Audio Heavy (red) Pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks (four placed under the rails of each amp)
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump.

Last edited by Charles; 03-15-2023 at 12:32 PM.
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