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  #21  
Old 02-08-2020, 04:26 PM
ufguy73 ufguy73 is offline
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Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
Where are you located? There is a big audio show this weekend in the Tampa Bay Area. I am sure that you would be able to listen to whatever you want in whatever price point you are comfortable with.
Across the country in CA
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2020, 04:28 PM
ufguy73 ufguy73 is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
You know, I don't think you are "stuck" at all. I have always gone for the speaker. You are fortunate in that you have found your speaker and amps, now you can concentrate on the DAC. Why dCS? In the Esoteric line there are much better DAC's. If you like the sound of Esoteric move up the line. You have a long way to go to get to a Grandioso DAC, Master Clock, and Transport.

I really like Esoteric Digital. They have obviously concentrated a lot of their prowess into their digital line.
I’ve often seen folks talk about dcs in the same light as esoteric (at least with respect to dac, if not transport/player).

Is there something marked about esoteric you feel puts it firmly ahead of dcs, comparing across both at similar price point models?
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2020, 07:01 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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Originally Posted by ufguy73 View Post
I’ve often seen folks talk about dcs in the same light as esoteric (at least with respect to dac, if not transport/player).

Is there something marked about esoteric you feel puts it firmly ahead of dcs, comparing across both at similar price point models?
No. I also like dCS a lot. crwilli likes Esoteric. It's quite impossible as he says to truly audition really expensive gear because I think listening to it at a dealer is pretty worthless. So you find an established brand like Esoteric or dCS whose sound you really like and move up the line to the ultimate gear. Often times your dealer will give you a better price if they know they may have repeat business as you upgrade.

I understand that with dCS some of their gear is upgradable without a trade in.

I would be very very happy to own either Esoteric or dCS as I believe their sound superb.

I know that some would raise their eyebrows but I believe I have an extremely cost effective system. If I could, I would own Esoteric or dCS for digital. It really depends on where you want to spend your money, unless you have unlimited funds. crwilli is fortunate because he has found his speakers and his amps. I don't think he's "stuck" at all. He's in a really good place to move up the Esoteric line, if he wants and I am sure his Strads and 2301's would do the move justice.

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 02-08-2020 at 07:07 PM.
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2020, 07:44 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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Originally Posted by ufguy73 View Post
Across the country in CA

If you have not been able to audition or find what you want by mid April, there is a huge audio show in Chicago in mid April. It is called Axpona. Everything that you have mentioned plus much more in all price ranges will be demonstrated there. You might want to check it out. Nice to have the problem you have!
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:53 PM
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To Craig’s (crwilli’s) point - I think without hearing a DAC in your system over a period of time you will be hard pressed to make a decision based on Sonics. Shows are great for getting a feel for the gear, how it looks, how it might fit into your home. But as a way to audition high performance DACs? Let’s just say it will be very difficult to come to any conclusion that is based on Sonics. There are just too many variables outside your control to make a meaningful sonic judgement of a high performance DAC at a show.

You could bring your own closed back headphones, amp, and source material. That would work, maybe. You would also definitely be a pariah.

To Marc’s (2FastDriving’s) point there is a lot more to the decision than Sonics alone.

So this is a very high class problem and the good news is that all these products are excellent in their own right and ‘better’ is in the ears and eyes of the beholder.

Buying Esoteric or dCS based on reputation alone is a very low risk scenario!
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2020, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
You know, I don't think you are "stuck" at all. I have always gone for the speaker. You are fortunate in that you have found your speaker and amps, now you can concentrate on the DAC. Why dCS? In the Esoteric line there are much better DAC's. If you like the sound of Esoteric move up the line. You have a long way to go to get to a Grandioso DAC, Master Clock, and Transport.



I really like Esoteric Digital. They have obviously concentrated a lot of their prowess into their digital line.


Hey Charles,

For sure moving up the Esoteric line would not be a move backward but I honesty am not sure it would be a step forward or at least a big enough step to justify the cost.

I have given thought to finding a DAC with a volume control and selling my K-03x, Cybershaft Clock AND my C1100 PreAmp to pay for it. The Lampizator Pacific or GG come to mind.

But there is no way I would make that big a move without being able to audition it in my room. I am just too risk adverse on a retirees budget.

To the OPs question, when starting out the issue is simpler. Jump into a brand you learn to trust as high up the line as you feel comfortable with. Find a couple of them and then zero in on as much comparison listening as possible.

Once you buy it, enjoy the heck out of it until you become like me, and see things seemingly evolving. THATs when the really tough decision occurs.
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Last edited by crwilli; 02-08-2020 at 10:53 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2020, 10:57 PM
ufguy73 ufguy73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
No. I also like dCS a lot. crwilli likes Esoteric. It's quite impossible as he says to truly audition really expensive gear because I think listening to it at a dealer is pretty worthless. So you find an established brand like Esoteric or dCS whose sound you really like and move up the line to the ultimate gear. Often times your dealer will give you a better price if they know they may have repeat business as you upgrade.

I understand that with dCS some of their gear is upgradable without a trade in.

I would be very very happy to own either Esoteric or dCS as I believe their sound superb.

I know that some would raise their eyebrows but I believe I have an extremely cost effective system. If I could, I would own Esoteric or dCS for digital. It really depends on where you want to spend your money, unless you have unlimited funds. crwilli is fortunate because he has found his speakers and his amps. I don't think he's "stuck" at all. He's in a really good place to move up the Esoteric line, if he wants and I am sure his Strads and 2301's would do the move justice.

Charles
Yes, i am certainly finding that really being able to check out multiple units, in your own system, is very challenging - and to be honest is not going to really be possible across all the units I am potentially thinking of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
If you have not been able to audition or find what you want by mid April, there is a huge audio show in Chicago in mid April. It is called Axpona. Everything that you have mentioned plus much more in all price ranges will be demonstrated there. You might want to check it out. Nice to have the problem you have!
Thanks! I will see if I can make it that time of year (and/or to other notable shows as well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
To Craig’s (crwilli’s) point - I think without hearing a DAC in your system over a period of time you will be hard pressed to make a decision based on Sonics. Shows are great for getting a feel for the gear, how it looks, how it might fit into your home. But as a way to audition high performance DACs? Let’s just say it will be very difficult to come to any conclusion that is based on Sonics. There are just too many variables outside your control to make a meaningful sonic judgement of a high performance DAC at a show.

You could bring your own closed back headphones, amp, and source material. That would work, maybe. You would also definitely be a pariah.

To Marc’s (2FastDriving’s) point there is a lot more to the decision than Sonics alone.

So this is a very high class problem and the good news is that all these products are excellent in their own right and ‘better’ is in the ears and eyes of the beholder.

Buying Esoteric or dCS based on reputation alone is a very low risk scenario!
Yes, I definitely am running into that common challenge (ie being able to hear pieces I am interested in over a sufficient period of time in my own system).

Two questions are really coming to mind as I look into this further and gather more and more understanding:

1) are there ANY generalities that could be shared in terms of sonic ‘signature’ when considering DCS/Esoteric/MSB/T+A DACs or transports?

Those are the brands I am fishing around in...would any thought to be a better pairing with the c1100/611s I would be running through?

2) Within a given brand, what are folks’ thoughts on when diminishing returns really kick in across the respective lines:

DCS; Bartok - Rossini - Vivaldi

MSb; Premier - Reference - Select

Actually, I guess a couple other questions (I think more solely dependent on what I want, however, but I would still be curious if others have thoughts);

3) The idea of a CD player/transport is still hanging around...I dont have a large cd collection at all (pitiful, tbh)...but for some reason, whether it is the physical medium/ownership/familiarity from my youth) I keep wondering if I should think of getting a 2-box transport/DAC or an integrated player/DAC, rather than just a DAC and streamer.

4) Originally, after getting my Mac setup, I was going to get a vinyl setup. Once I started to understand how high the costs could go on a really great vinyl rig, however, I decided to postpone and just go digital with its convenience and lower cost outlay. As I have been delving more into the digital research, I find myself sliding into more expensive areas than I was originally thinking of negating some of the benefit of going the ‘lower’ cost solution vs analog...

I still think the digital pieces I am thinking of are still less than the outlay for the phono (I was thinking like CA Master Innovation/ goldfinger just to give a sense of outlay) but its not as big a price difference as originally if I am thinking about something like Vivaldi or MSB or 2-box transport/DAC...

Any thought on making a BIG investment in the DAC (and potentially player/transport/streamer) setup vs REALLY BIG investment in turntable/arm/cartridge?

I realize it all comes down to what I want - and no one can really answer that for me - but I’ve been trying to get some clarity myself and any and all views could be quite helpful...it’s exciting and agonizing at the same time

Sorry, for the rambling but appreciate any thoughts!
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Hey Charles,

For sure moving up the Esoteric line would not be a move backward but I honesty am not sure it would be a step forward or at least a big enough step to justify the cost.

I have given thought to finding a DAC with a volume control and selling my K-03x, Cybershaft Clock AND my C1100 PreAmp to pay for it. The Lampizator Pacific or GG come to mind.

But there is no way I would make that big a move without being able to audition it in my room. I am just too risk adverse on a retirees budget.

To the OPs question, when starting out the issue is simpler. Jump into a brand you learn to trust as high up the line as you feel comfortable with. Find a couple of them and then zero in on as much comparison listening as possible.

Once you buy it, enjoy the heck out of it until you become like me, and see things seemingly evolving. THATs when the really tough decision occurs.
Craig... I can arrange to send you an EMM Labs DA2
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:42 AM
2fastdriving 2fastdriving is offline
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Regarding the digital vs analog, you need to determine how much you will actually use the vinyl rig. It's a lot of work and hassle to do vinyl but it is also rewarding. As for the cost.. I don't think you need to buy a gold finger to be very very happy. That's overkill for your first setup IMHO. You can put together a great analog setup for much less.
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:24 AM
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crwilli I looked into the Lampizator Pacific. Absolutely beautiful gear but too exotic for me. I think your instincts are very good. For example a Rossini Player has a volume control. Eliminating the classic pre is an excellent idea. It's what I did. I haven't regretted it.

It has expandability and upgradability. It's beautiful. It's established with excellent reputation. Although quite expensive, it's is affordable.

Certainly an alternative to Esoteric.

In regards to Ivan's generous offer. Ed Meitner is in the same class as Nelson Pass or Dan D'Agostino. I don't know if his DA2 has a volume control and exactly what you are looking for. It may be more of a stand alone dac.

The Rossini is quite competitive with my D1100 regarding digital inputs and really functions like a digital pre. It's inputs are staggering to say the least.

Charles

I just noted it does not support SACD. I would have to have SACD. Esoteric Players do. Many of my very best recordings are on SACD.

Last edited by Charles; 02-09-2020 at 06:44 AM.
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