Using Cyclops with a BAT, or any other, amp

[BlueFox]

I asked a question in the BAT forum, and it was suggested to move the question to the Shunyata forum. So, with some background info, here it is.

In the BAT forum an individual posted a question wondering if using a Cyclops would be detrimental to his system.

I figure that even wide open, each side of the amplifier never draws more than 5 amps (total 10 because it's dual mono), so can I get away with plugging both power cords into one Cyclops and then using only one power cord to the wall?

The first reply implied the Cyclops would limit the current to the amps.

Most likely you will subject the amp to severe current starvation. Each channel will WANT to draw much more than 5A at full power. Ideally you would not want to have any current limiting devices between the power line and your amp.

At this point Caelin pointed out the Cyclops will limit current less than the amp's stock power cord.

As to the question about the Cyclops and its ability to deliver instantaneous current - how can I say this in simple terms? Ok, how about this for a non-technical explanation. The Cyclops limits instantaneous current delivery LESS than the standard power cord that came in the box with the amp.

Then it occurred to me that the BAT amp might be better off by using the Cyclops and better power cords versus just plugging the amps into the wall with the stock power cords, since it would appear the combination will provide better instantaneous current delivery, along with cleaner AC power. Which brings me to my question.

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Would it be fair to say a Cyclops, along with a better power cord, would limit instantaneous current delivery "LESS than the standard power cord that came in the box with the amp."?

The benefit being better instantaneous current delivery, and cleaner power, than the stock power cord.

So, theoretically, the BAT amp should perform better with that combination, and since the idea is to have your gear work at its best, using the Cyclops along with better power cords should be a win/win for the amp and owner. At least that is my understanding.

[chessman]

I was the OP in the other thread. Just for the record, I replaced the stock cords with a pair of WireWorld Silver Electra 5^2 power cords a long time ago. I did not notice any change.

I was clumsy in framing my question in the other thread. I was trying to figure out if tying both power cords from a dual mono design amp into a single Cyclops would negate the benefits of the dual mono design because there would only be a single cord from the Cyclops to the wall. I interpreted Victor's answer as (1) realizing what I was trying to ask and (2) saying yes it would.

I may still try a Cyclops on each power cord, but that means two of them AND two more power cords to feed them. My gut tells me that is overkill. Still on the fence.

[BlueFox]

I wonder if there is any difference between a dual mono amp plugged into a Cyclops with a single cord to the wall versus using two mono amps plugged into a Cyclops (or Triton) with a single cord to the wall?

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by chessman

I was the OP in the other thread. Just for the record, I replaced the stock cords with a pair of WireWorld Silver Electra 5^2 power cords a long time ago. I did not notice any change.

I was clumsy in framing my question in the other thread. I was trying to figure out if tying both power cords from a dual mono design amp into a single Cyclops would negate the benefits of the dual mono design because there would only be a single cord from the Cyclops to the wall. I interpreted Victor's answer as (1) realizing what I was trying to ask and (2) saying yes it would.

I may still try a Cyclops on each power cord, but that means two of them AND two more power cords to feed them. My gut tells me that is overkill. Still on the fence.

Hello Randy,

Thank you for the question. It is a good one in that there is a lot of confusion regarding amplifiers and power conditioners. Tim is right on in everything that he has said.

Generally speaking, you should not put a power conditioner or any other device between a high current amplifier and the wall outlet. ANY and ALL power conditioners that use transformers, coils or ferrites WILL limit instantaneous current. Since most power conditioners are designed with some type of inline inductive component to control noise, RFI and transient surges, there will be a corresponding reduction of DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery).

There have been many reviews from magazines and from consumers that tout the abilities of the Triton to power hi-current amplifiers without any hint of dynamic compression. The Cyclops is even better than the Triton when it comes to DTCD capability. It was designed specifically for use with hi-current amplifiers. It is a hot-rodded design in that there are NO coils, transformers or any other inline inductive devices. The wiring is massive and kept exceeding short. There is no buss distribution and no current breakers.

So, as I said the Cyclops has less DTCD reduction that the stock power cord which is a way of saying that it should be insignificant. What the amplifier gains is the noise reduction from the NICs and from the MPDA. The MPDA helps to reduces switching noise from the rectifiers and the NICs reduce RFI/EMI from the environment.

Randy a question for you. I am not familiar with the specific BAT model that you have. (I do own a BAT integrated and love it!) Does this model have two power cords feeding each mono amplifier? And is each cord feeding a separate power supply within the component? Are you powering both mono ampifiers from a single power circuit? If so, how are you managing to connect four power cords to the wall. Do you have a quadplex or are you using some type of power strip/conditioner? Then, I can answer your specific question.

cg

[chessman]

Originally Posted by CGabriel

Hello Randy,

Thank you for the question. It is a good one in that there is a lot of confusion regarding amplifiers and power conditioners. Tim is right on in everything that he has said.

Generally speaking, you should not put a power conditioner or any other device between a high current amplifier and the wall outlet. ANY and ALL power conditioners that use transformers, coils or ferrites WILL limit instantaneous current. Since most power conditioners are designed with some type of inline inductive component to control noise, RFI and transient surges, there will be a corresponding reduction of DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery).

There have been many reviews from magazines and from consumers that tout the abilities of the Triton to power hi-current amplifiers without any hint of dynamic compression. The Cyclops is even better than the Triton when it comes to DTCD capability. It was designed specifically for use with hi-current amplifiers. It is a hot-rodded design in that there are NO coils, transformers or any other inline inductive devices. The wiring is massive and kept exceeding short. There is no buss distribution and no current breakers.

So, as I said the Cyclops has less DTCD reduction that the stock power cord which is a way of saying that it should be insignificant. What the amplifier gains is the noise reduction from the NICs and from the MPDA. The MPDA helps to reduces switching noise from the rectifiers and the NICs reduce RFI/EMI from the environment.

Randy a question for you. I am not familiar with the specific BAT model that you have. (I do own a BAT integrated and love it!) Does this model have two power cords feeding each mono amplifier? And is each cord feeding a separate power supply within the component? Are you powering both mono ampifiers from a single power circuit? If so, how are you managing to connect four power cords to the wall. Do you have a quadplex or are you using some type of power strip/conditioner? Then, I can answer your specific question.
cg

Caelin,

The amp has two power cords and two separate power supplies. The two power cords plug into the wall directly, which is to say into the same 15 amp circuit. There are only two power cords, not four.

Thanks!

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by chessman

Caelin,

The amp has two power cords and two separate power supplies. The two power cords plug into the wall directly, which is to say into the same 15 amp circuit. There are only two power cords, not four.

Thanks!

Ok good, so there are two mono amps each with a power cord.

In my home system, I have a set of Audio Research DS450 mono amplifiers that are fed off a single power circuit. I am using a single Cyclops to power both amps. The Cyclops has a XiTron Viper to the wall with a Viper to each amplifier. This is very similar to what you would be doing with your BAT amplifiers if you choose.

Since there is only a single circuit and both power cords plug into that circuit at the duplex - the determining factor in current delivery will be the in-wall wiring and the power cords that connect to the amps. The wiring in the wall is probably 14 gauge wire. So the additional 1 meter Viper PC (10 gauge) as a percentage of the total power wire will not impact instantaneous current delivery. The Cyclops actually has less impedance than a 6 foot Viper power cord so it will not be an problem.

In this application, the power cord from the Cyclops to the wall becomes the most important cable in the system since the current for both amps runs through this single cord. Do not skimp on the quality of this cord. It should be at least as good as the cables you are using to the amps or at least one grade up. In our line of products that would mean you could use a Python PC (Viper minimum) on the Cyclops if you are using a Viper on the amps. You would not use, for instance, a Belden 12 gauge on the Cyclops if you were using a Viper cord on the amps.

Some people seem to think that a power conditioner can magically improve power quality thru filtering or regeneration alone. DTCD is the MOST important aspect to power delivery and is fundamental to good power system performance in an audio/video system. Remember that AC power delivery is not like a signal transmission. It is not about the sine wave alone (voltage) but is about POWER transmission which means the determining factor is about CURRENT. P=E*I

Inductance is the primary impediment to instantaneous current delivery (DTCD). The defining characteristic of an inductor is that it resists a change in current flow. That means that when the amplifier's rectifiers switch on, they close a switch and pull hard on the power line radically increasing current flow. Any inductor (coil, transformer or ferrite core) will resist this current flow. That is by definition - CURRENT LIMITING.

The power cord to the power conditioner can make or break its performance, especially when you are dealing with high current devices like amps and video projectors.

I also agree that you should work with a dealer that allows you to have a trial period so that you can be sure that it works in your specific system. I never buy anything unless I can try it my own system. There are certain reviewers who I trust and certain associates whose opinion I trust and that is how I come to a short list of products to try out.

cg

[BlueFox]

This has been pretty interesting. I had not paid to much attention before to the Cyclops, but it appears I should have. I think I will order one, along with an Anaconda PC, and move my two amps off the Triton and onto the Cyclops. Plus now I have an excuse to order the new Alpha cable for my DAC.

Thanks for making me spend more money.

[BlueFox]

This thread started me thinking about my current power distribution system, and how to improve it. Until Thursday night I had my amps (Pass Labs X600.5) plugged into my Triton, along with the pre, digital file player, DAC, and SACD player. To be honest, I felt this sounded great, and couldn't imagine much room for improvement, at least from a power perspective.

However, a couple of months ago I tripped the surge protector on my Triton while blasting the music, and this damaged the surge protector. While Shunyata quickly fixed it, and everything is back to normal, this incident has been in the back of my mind while playing music. Anyway, the question about BAT amps using a Cyclops started me thinking about the Cyclops. Since the Cyclops appears to be a two port Triton, but without the surge protector, I decided to buy one to use with the amps, along with a Zytron Anaconda, and let the 20 amp breaker deal with the amps. So now I am using both outlets on the SR-Z1 outlet on a dedicated 20 amp line. One for the Cyclops, and one for the Triton.

So, how does it sound? My expectation is that there should be little, if any, difference, but it turns out there is an improvement. As soon as I turned it on Thursday night it seemed as if the music was 'softer'. Not in a db manner, but it seemed smoother, less harsh. I wasn't even aware this harshness was there until it disappeared. Now, after a day or so of burn-in, it is sounding even better. It appears a bit more open, a little more precise in the placement of instruments in the sound stage, and more natural. All in all, I am very pleased with the result, and would recommend to anyone to use the Cyclops/Anaconda with their amps. Incidentally, the amp power cords are Zytron Pythons.

One thing in the back of my mind is another 20 amp line for the amps. However, I doubt if the rest of the gear even uses 1 amp total, so it would seem as if another line is overkill, even if there is a marginal improvement in sound. On the other hand, $300 for another line is nothing compared to $5K for the Cyclops/Anaconda.

[Ritmo]

Originally Posted by CGabriel

Ok good, so there are two mono amps each with a power cord.

In my home system, I have a set of Audio Research DS450 mono amplifiers that are fed off a single power circuit. I am using a single Cyclops to power both amps. The Cyclops has a XiTron Viper to the wall with a Viper to each amplifier. This is very similar to what you would be doing with your BAT amplifiers if you choose.

Since there is only a single circuit and both power cords plug into that circuit at the duplex - the determining factor in current delivery will be the in-wall wiring and the power cords that connect to the amps. The wiring in the wall is probably 14 gauge wire. So the additional 1 meter Viper PC (10 gauge) as a percentage of the total power wire will not impact instantaneous current delivery. The Cyclops actually has less impedance than a 6 foot Viper power cord so it will not be an problem.

In this application, the power cord from the Cyclops to the wall becomes the most important cable in the system since the current for both amps runs through this single cord. Do not skimp on the quality of this cord. It should be at least as good as the cables you are using to the amps or at least one grade up. In our line of products that would mean you could use a Python PC (Viper minimum) on the Cyclops if you are using a Viper on the amps. You would not use, for instance, a Belden 12 gauge on the Cyclops if you were using a Viper cord on the amps.

Some people seem to think that a power conditioner can magically improve power quality thru filtering or regeneration alone. DTCD is the MOST important aspect to power delivery and is fundamental to good power system performance in an audio/video system. Remember that AC power delivery is not like a signal transmission. It is not about the sine wave alone (voltage) but is about POWER transmission which means the determining factor is about CURRENT. P=E*I

Inductance is the primary impediment to instantaneous current delivery (DTCD). The defining characteristic of an inductor is that it resists a change in current flow. That means that when the amplifier's rectifiers switch on, they close a switch and pull hard on the power line radically increasing current flow. Any inductor (coil, transformer or ferrite core) will resist this current flow. That is by definition - CURRENT LIMITING.

The power cord to the power conditioner can make or break its performance, especially when you are dealing with high current devices like amps and video projectors.

I also agree that you should work with a dealer that allows you to have a trial period so that you can be sure that it works in your specific system. I never buy anything unless I can try it my own system. There are certain reviewers who I trust and certain associates whose opinion I trust and that is how I come to a short list of products to try out.

cg

Caelin,

Thanks for the insight.

BTW, how do you like the DS450 monos?

Mike

[CGabriel]

The DS450 is a great amp. Lots of power. Sounds good. Very little heat production so it is efficient and green. Sounds good when you first turn it on so it is good for guys like me that do a lot of power on and off for testing purposes. It is not a REF-250 or a class A Pass Amp but it doesn't cost a fortune either. It has no obvious negatives; it is just that some of the top amps do some things a bit better. I can live with it. cg