How to buy vinyl, for a newbie

[Mikado463]

Originally Posted by Freestone

I am going back to vinyl.

going back....therfore you've been, so you're not a newbie, rather one returning from hibernation !

How and where do I buy vinyl?

depending on your budget anywhere from The Goodwill to one of the High End retailers. As someone who has been spinning 'black pizza' for over fifty years you would be surprised at what I've found @ Goodwill......for fifty cents !


[/QUOTE]

[Freestone]

Followed your recommendations - core essentials filling out nicely thanks.
Now I can be opportunistic and take my time.

[Speakerlabfan]

Originally Posted by AudioNut

New and used records (LP's) from the sources named above are usually so expensive that it would be difficult and very costly to put together a representative collection, purchasing from those places.

I occasionally purchase a single LP or two at the exorbitant prices that those places charge, but this is a major exception for me rather than the rule.

I find that the best places to find a large numbers of records at affordable prices are from individuals or businesses that really don't have any idea of what they have or what they are selling, and certainly no idea of their worth.

I've found that almost all classical records found in the places I name are "like new", as are most good jazz records. Easy listening, soundtracks, etc. records my be more "iffy" but have usually been taken care of by previous owners. Pop/rock in good condition are harder to find.

1. Thrift stores - Good Will, Salvation Army etc. These establishments have been the beneficiaries of people who no longer have room for their record collections and just want to give them away, claiming a tax write-off in the bargain. I have bought hundreds of LP's from these places at $1.00 each (sometimes even less). You must look at each record to determine condition before buying, but many, many are mint or even brand-new.

2. Individuals - again these are usually people who just want to get rid of the things that have been taking up space for years. Often they will just give them away, or charge extremely low prices. I remember the largest lot of records I ever bought, was from an audiophile friend, who had decided that digital was his future and offered me his whole collection of over 2,000 "near mint" LP's for the princely sum of $500.00. Didn't take me long to decide on that particular purchase!

3. Yard Sales - I've bought whole "great big" boxes of records from yard sales - often for $5.00 for the whole box - you can sift through the box to see if there are any worthwhile LP's before you purchase, and if there are even 4 or 5 "good ones", you can buy the box and just give the remainder away (give them to a thrift store and write them off) our just let the friendly trash man haul them away for you. I've found a huge number of "good" records at yard sales.

4. If you are looking for either classical or jazz records, I find that used cd/record stores specializing in "rock", often are willing to "dump" the boxes of classical or jazz records that they have sitting in their store-rooms, never having been classified or priced. You can often get these at rock-bottom prices. (again $5.00 - $10.00 for the whole box)

5. Want Ads, Craigs List, etc. Usually individuals who just want to get rid of the things.

6. eBay & Amazon (used vinyl) - never for collectable records, but often you can get good "regular" records at fairly reasonable prices. Problem here is that you are buying "one at a time" and shipping drives the cost up.

Over the years, I've amassed a large number of very good LP's (14,000 ±) and I suppose a large number of the really good ones have come from the sources I've named. I suppose I was fortunate in the fact that I was looking for LP's during the years that folks were "discovering" digital and just wanted to get rid of their LP's. But you can still find thousands of good records from such places.

Remember - Land Fills and trash dumps all over the world are full of LP's that people have thrown-out - so find a way to get the things before they are put in the garbage!

Every month or so, someone who has learned that I collect LP's will tell me that they have some boxes of records in their storage room that they will be happy to give me if I'm interested - and I always am interested and will go pick them up before the person can change his mind.

Good Luck!

Great suggestions / guidance here, mirrors my experience with finding terrific condition LPs on quality labels at affordable prices.

I'd add that one ESSENTIAL tool for working with LPs is a vacuum based Record Cleaning Machine, for example a VPI 16.5.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

depending on your budget anywhere from The Goodwill to one of the High End retailers. As someone who has been spinning 'black pizza' for over fifty years you would be surprised at what I've found @ Goodwill......for fifty cents !

[DonBattles]

I've had good results at local Thrift Stores, find what you like and look for scratches, if it looks visually it usually sounds good These are usually $1-$3 so even if I get a dud no big deal. In my area I find a good variety so go have a look, you might be surprised

[Whart]

I have about 10,000 records. These represent (a) records I bought as a kid that I somehow managed to keep, circa the 60's (b) the first wave of 'audiophile' records, from labels like MFSL and Nautilus, various 1/2 speed mastered records and the like from the 70's and 80's (c) purchase of most of the recommended records on TAS list, etc. during the 80's from various specialty record stores, like the Princeton Record Exchange (d) the acquisition of a considerable amount of vinyl as it was exiled to cut-out bins once the CD was introduced circa 1984 (e) purchases, all over the world, at various record stores of 'known' quality labels including Decca, Lyrita, Mercury Living Presence, RCA Shaded Dogs, Opus 3, Japanese pressings, etc. as well as some 'audiophile' reissues from labels like Chesky (f) acquisition of a substantial collection from a friend's widow (g) purchase of various reissues as that market has burgeoned in the last 20 years, from Analogue Productions, Classic Records, etc.
I provide this as background to my following observations:
1. Alot of 'audiophile' reissues are overrated and actually sound worse than the original pressings- at best they offer quieter surfaces, but in many cases, the 'remastering' actually changes the sonics of the records, and for the worst. Remember, to the extent these are taken from the 'original' master tapes, those tapes have substantially degraded from the time the record was originally cut to the time it was reissued. In addition, some of the choices that were made in 'remastering' were not good ones- the original MFSL records, circa the 70's-early 80's sound strange and the better my system has gotten over the years, I have become less tolerant of the aesthetic decisions made by Stan Ricker or whoever else remastered these.
2. Let's use one warhorse as an example: Tea for the Tillerman. I have the original MFSL UHQR that I bought new, when it was first issued, for $150- a not inconsiderable price 30 or so years ago for a single record. It sounds OK. I also have the various reissues that have come down the pike from various sources since then, all 'audiophile' approved and costing 30 bucks or so apiece. Played in comparison to an original Island pink label- I bought my copy from a street guy in Greenwich Village for a buck or so- the difference is dramatic. The pink label sounds far better, less muted, less 'fooled with.' It may be a little noisier than some of the fancy pressings. Which would i chose regardless of price, the UHQR or the homeless guy copy? You guessed it.
3. Some records are either impossible to find in their original pressings or cost stupid money and make reissues a viable or sometimes the only alternative. However, that is not always the case. Although I'd say only about 1/3 of the records I buy from sources off e-bay are anywhere near rated condition (and anything less than NM isn't worth bothering with unless you absolutely have to have the record for the music), I'd rather spend the 8 bucks or whatever and take the shot for an original than buy a reissue. Examples: Blood, Sweat and Tears second album can sound absolutely killer. Cost if you find a good sounding copy: 8 bucks or less. You can spend alot of 8 buck shots to find a decent sounding copy if the budget is between that and a 50 dollar or more reissue which, in many cases, will not sound as good.
4. Note that i said if you find a good copy. There is huge variability among the sound quality of even the 'same' pressings. With mass produced records it is impossible to predict. Places like 'Better Records' charge a fortune to sort through original pressings and find good sounding ones. You can do the same, for far less, if you are willing to spend the time.
5. Even the same record will have variability between sides. Chicago II- I have an "8 buck" copy that has one side that sounds absolutely killer; same album, different side, sounds bright and nasty. Why? Have no clue, except so many variables went into the manufacture of these things- including the fact that the same 'master' may not have been used for every side, that you could be reduced to listening to one copy for one side, and a different copy for a different side.
6. Some records just don't sound good. Remaster them to death, you can't do much if the original recordings sound like poop. Dusty in Memphis, a legendary record, sounds like poop. The last reissue sounded awful. The most current version, which i think is a 45, is I gather an improvement on poop, but it is still poop. There is only so much that can be done with some records, e.g. why waste kilo bucks on Led Zep 1 reissues? It is a great record, but not a very good recording. Ditto the Blind Faith record, and Derek and the Dominos. Hugely important hard rock records that are simply bad recordings. Enjoy them for the music and stop looking for the elusive great copy, particularly when reissued at a high price. (I have reissues of all of them, and they don't sound better).
7. Quality control on current pressings at any price is hugely variable. Classic Records is now out of business (well, Chad's Acoustic Sounds now owns the label); they had some great stuff in their catalog- the 45 rpm 200 gram records were extremely variable in quality- about half of the ones I bought were unlistenable due to 'stitching' noise- a function of bad pressing. These were expensive records when first issued and are now even more expensive today since they are out of print. Unless the vendor assures you that you can return it if defective, you are taking a risk. And Classic was certainly not alone. Ever try the Lost Highway pressing of that hot audiophile Shelby Lynne record, "just a little lovin'? Even after a shitstorm of bad press over quality, and claims that they had 'fixed' the problem, the current pressing is unlistenable. Here, I will contradict myself- you have to buy the audiophile pressing. Ditto on Junior Wells "Hoodoo Man Blues"- the current standard pressing was warped, the center hole wasn't fully cut and off center and the record was unplayable. The 45 rpm version- check out the cut 'in the wee wee hours,' starting with the cymbal roll at the beginning of the track, is absolutely delicious.
8. If you care what these records sound like, don't start buying expensive audiophile reissues or anything else (particularly the e-bay cheapies) without first getting a decent record cleaning machine and developing a cleaning regimen. Otherwise, you are wasting your time. A basic machine, like a VPI 16.5 with some decent fluid and brushes (I've been using the Walker 3 fluid scheme with Walker brushes) is essential. Some folks seem to think that the money is better spent on building the record collection and waiting to invest in a cleaning machine. I am of the opposite view: new records have mould release compounds that must be removed, and used records have everything from fingerprints to cigarette smoke (which acts like glue) coating them. You have to clean the records to hear them properly.
9. If you commit to vinyl, it is presumably because of sound quality because otherwise, it is a giant pain in the ass. Your record collection will be a big investment over time. You may not hear some of the differences on an entry level table, but if you stay with it, you are not going to be using an entry level table for the rest of your life; you will upgrade table, arm and cartridges as time goes on, and the sound quality of the discs you buy now will become increasingly obvious as time goes on. Two examples: those MFSL records that I have had since the 80's- Dark Side, Led Zep II, Aqualung, Abbey Road, White Album, etc. were more tolerable on the systems i had in the 80's. I have continued to improve my vinyl playback (as well as the rest of my) system in the last 30 years. The differences are more pronounced now. Likewise, I thought some of the Mercury Living Presence records were overrated- they sounded too bright on my earlier systems. Today, some of them are spellbinding- yes, they are sometimes a little 'thin' or hard sounding, but the massed strings and dynamic range are just incredible. This may be an example where you just have to buy the early pressings, for the reasons stated in #1 above. Make sure you love the music before you lay down big money on a record like this- you can get Wilma Cozart Fine supervised CD reissues first, and then, once you've decided which ones are worth pursuing, go for it.
10.Moral of story- Don't get sucked into the 'audiophile' hype- listen to records at friends who have considerable collections, don't be afraid to buy a used record cheap (if expensive, make sure you have the right to return it if it is not in rated condition). And, take recommendations, like equipment recommendations, in context- if the guy thinks the latest Black Keys record actually sounds good, you may want to ask him what he's playing it over.
11. Have fun!
PS. Buy a box of high quality inner sleeves. Those paper ones on old records, even if not tatty, can be destructive and also don't help with static as you unsleeve and resleeve the record. And once you clean the record, you don't want to put it back in a grotty old liner. To the extent the sleeve had lyrics or other material that make it part of the original package, keep it, just don't use it to contain the record.

[MyPal]

Whart.... awesome post.

[Freestone]

Whart - what a post! Thank you.

But it left me ... depressed. Depressed that I will ever know what I am doing. And that I may have made expensive mistakes in the last few days, including on Tea for Tillerman and the rolling stones box set.

Maybe depressed that I bought a high end turn table!

Which record cleaning system do you recommend?

Thanks though. You should run an evaluation service.

[Whart]

Dude, i've been doing this for 40 plus years and am still learning. On Tea, if you bought Chad's latest, i think, overall, it got decent reviews. But, look for a UK pink label- you can probably find some on e-bay- the real issue will be condition, since short of the record being chopped into little pieces, it will at least get a VG+. On some forum the other day, they were commenting on an e-bay listing with a photo that showed a nasty gash in the vinyl and the seller had rated it at least VG+.
In terms of evaluation, i probably have no better ears than you do, maybe worse, given my age, but i've been around enough to know what sounds like music- and even if I can't say I was in the sessions with Cat Stevens (I know people that were and they told me he was an absolute perfectionist), I can still compare the sound of one record to another, just like you can.
My main point is to avoid the hype. Every new reissue is 'the best' and 'dramatically better' when it may not be- less noisy, maybe, but the Classic experience proved that even with all the gung-ho audiophile stuff around it, their pressings were simply defective. Not all of them, all the time, but enough that it put alot of folks off buying their stuff. (Just run an Internet search on Classic Records 200 g pressings and you'll see what i mean).
Believe it or not, i'm still using my VPI 16.5- it is well over 20 years old and won't die! It is noisy as hell but it works fine, as long as you keep the vacuum tube clean (use a fresh toothbrush) and have some backups when it goes (i think they're 30 bucks for a new tube, not a big deal, the trick is orienting it right, but there's an easy way to do that, too). I've looked at the Loricraft/Monks/Odessey type cleaner, but the big draw back is that they are not really set up for multiple fluid cleaning regimes. Others are more like variations of the VPI, perhaps nicer looking. I think Clearaudio makes a few that clean both sides at the same time, which could be a bonus, since one draw back is dirty side down to clean top side.
The Autodesk cleaner is the hot new ticket, i like the fact that you don't have to go through a vacuum process, but if you read the comments of users, it still has a few quirks. At some point, I will upgrade my machine, but it kinda proves my point- you don't need anything terribly expensive or fancy for a RCM.
On one of the other fora I'm on, one of the guys was talking about a Classic Records 45 that he uses as a reference. I think I have the original Columbia 6 eyes somewhere here, but since my records are not well organized, i haven't been able to find it yet. I did break down and buy the Classic 33.3, even though it is a 200 g record (I'm not sure if these are old stock or now that Chad bought the label, he is manufacturing them). Anyway, another guy on the forum bought one of the Classic 33.3 copies which sounded fine, and also sprung for the 45 for 150 bucks. He reported that it had that nasty stitching noise - so expensive mistake? If he had gotten lucky, no. If he can still return the 45, he's ok.
The only other thing I would avoid is reading reviews on the sites that sell the records. Do you think they'll print a bad review? There are a fair amount of reputable reviewers out there who aren't afraid to say that a reissue sucks.
Again, there's nothing I know that you don't- I just have been doing it longer, and probably made more mistakes. But, the real beauty is firing up some record pressed 30 or 40 or more years ago (after cleaning of course) and hearing lively, uncompressed music. I also have been conditioned to record surface noise, unlike the generation that grew up after digital became mainstream media, so a little surface noise is something I can mentally block out. The one beauty of a good reissue- check out that cut on the 45 rpm version of Hoodoo Man blues- is the dead quietness.
And, i see no reason why you should be depressed about having bought a serious turntable. People wonder what all the magic in vinyl is about, and it isn't at the entry level. You gotta have something that is really dead quiet and have a good arm, cartridge and all the rest.

[Josquin des Prez]

Originally Posted by MyPal

Whart.... awesome post.

+1 Good advice

I'd like to emphasize the importance of putting records on a RCM before you ever play, to get the mold release compound and other contaminants off. I've even gotten brand new audiophile 45 RPM records that were dirty out of the sleeves. When I visited Acoustic Sounds and Quality Record pressings, they confirmed how important that is. Not doing so is the biggest contributor to ticks and pops later on.

Keep a package of good inner sleeves handy. I use the MoFi ones and usually buy them four packages at a time for a discount (i.e. $68 for 200). Acoustic Sounds also sells their own branded ones (but the exact same otherwise) in bulk ($68 for 200), but they don't package them like Mofi does and they often end up curling at the corners. I replace the sleeves on all records I clean, even brand new records.

[chessman]

Whart, a truly outstanding couple of posts. Thanks!!