ARC: Out of receivership

[Charles]

I am all for ARC success. In my mind it is the reference brand for American tube gear. Not Mac, because Mac essentially gave up on tubes years ago. Mac only occassionally brought out a tube amp but SS was their bread and butter. Then Mac saw the opportunity to jump back into tubes, make a lot of money, and took it. ARC has mostly remained faithful but has on occasion built SS gear without much success.

I will say this about AA. When I first joined years ago there was a lot of Mac bashing that I did not appreciate at all. Using expressions like "blew the Mac away" or "I would prefer any ...... over any Mac" is offensive to me and simply untrue.

Etiquette and sensitivity is vitally important and AA has evolved into a forum that respects other's gear. Of course there are those that still make blanket, rash, all encompassing comparisons. I love my 3500's and wouldn't trade them for any other amp, period. But in making this statement, I totally respect that you are free to make the same statement about your Accuphase, Dag, or ARC, or any of your gear and everybody understands this is purely personal opinion. No one is offended.

I also got very tired of hearing how folks were able to take 30K of super expensive gear into their home and "audition" it. Well that may be so, but the gear is not even on the level of a demo anymore, when returned, IMO. Demos are supposed to stay in house on the shelf with full warranty. It is a used piece if it goes to a house. Certainly, you may have that very special relationship with your dealer including Ivan, but he or she better not sell it to me as new out of the box straight from the factory without full disclosure that it has been auditioned in someone's home for an extended period of time. This happens less frequently now on AA.

AA has evolved into a high end forum that I really enjoy because serious discussions take place on a high level without offense 99% of the time.

Best

Charles

[Antonmb]

Originally Posted by Charles

I also got very tired of hearing how folks were able to take 30K of super expensive gear into their home and "audition" it. Well that may be so, but the gear is not even on the level of a demo anymore, when returned, IMO. Demos are supposed to stay in house on the shelf with full warranty. It is a used piece if it goes to a house. Certainly, you may have that very special relationship with your dealer including Ivan, but he or she better not sell it to me as new out of the box straight from the factory without full disclosure that it has been auditioned in someone's home for an extended period of time. This happens less frequently now on AA.

Charles, I agree re the bashing, but not sure I understand this point. Is there something wrong with us saying we are able to audition something at home? If I'm going to spend a lot of money on a piece of equipment, I like to be able to evaluate it in my system and room. My dealer usually has demo equipment to accommodate that, and if I don't keep it (which is rare), it goes back to his shop as a demo,mor maybe to another customer. When he sells his demo gear, he discounts it accordingly. I don't understand why there would be anything wrong with this.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Antonmb

Charles, I agree re the bashing, but not sure I understand this point. Is there something wrong with us saying we are able to audition something at home? If I'm going to spend a lot of money on a piece of equipment, I like to be able to evaluate it in my system and room. My dealer usually has demo equipment to accommodate that, and if I don't keep it (which is rare), it goes back to his shop as a demo,mor maybe to another customer. When he sells his demo gear, he discounts it accordingly. I don't understand why there would be anything wrong with this.

Absolutely, it is ok. On AA in the past there were folks saying things that didn't make sense to me. If you have a special relationship with your dealer, you are very fortunate. Super expensive gear that has been in multiple folks homes is not even a demo, IMO. It is used gear with a warranty in my book but I wonder if the manufacturer found out, if the warranty would be honored. I wouldn't want the gear myself. My dealer is very successful and I have bought a lot of gear from him, but I don't have that kind of clout.

The post would go, "I absolutely loved my Mac but when I got my ..... and auditioned it in my system, it blew the Mac away....." And so on. I've been around the block. Take a new upgraded Momentum power amp. It might take me months to truly discover how much better it was over my 3500. Initial impressions are most of the time incorrect. It takes many weeks to discover the nuances between excellent gear. In addition, there's the system itself and the compatibility of the pre/power amp with each other. I would never and I mean never mix Mac tube and Dag SS. Now it might turn out great but for me a non starter. If I went with Dag it would mean a redo of my entire system in order to discover, just how much better Dag was over what I have. So IMO dropping a piece of gear into a well thought out system will take weeks if not months and will certainly not "blow the Mac away". I got very tired of this language and fortunately it happens infrequently. Hyperbole trashing a manufacturer or a piece of gear is offensive to the owners of the gear. On AA for the most part folks have learned to express opinions delicately yet forcefully.

Best

Charles

p.s When I first heard my XVX I was very impressed. But I was very careful not to say the XVX absolutely blew my Alexx away. First of all, it didn't but even if it did I would never say it. Same goes for my 3500 vs my I.25 KW's. Now I significantly prefer my 3500's but they didn't trash my 1.25's. In fact I could see how another might prefer it over the sound of my 3500. I personally believe that ARC makes the best tube gear. If you want the absolute buy the big 16 tube mono block. It's the reference standard. If you want possibly the very best SS buy the new Dag Momentum. Will either one "blow my 3500 away"? Absolutely not. Would I swap out my 3500 for either gear, no, would even think about it. And these are only my humble opinions. All I'm trying to say, is if you really are "blown away", it's ok to express your opinion tactfully but forcefully on AA, but don't offend your buddies.

[PeterMusic]

Originally Posted by Antonmb

Charles, I agree re the bashing, but not sure I understand this point. Is there something wrong with us saying we are able to audition something at home? If I'm going to spend a lot of money on a piece of equipment, I like to be able to evaluate it in my system and room. My dealer usually has demo equipment to accommodate that, and if I don't keep it (which is rare), it goes back to his shop as a demo,mor maybe to another customer. When he sells his demo gear, he discounts it accordingly. I don't understand why there would be anything wrong with this.

I agree.

Charles, with all due respect, I think you are conflating a couple of different issues. Manners are very important, and I would certainly not want to be disrespectful.

Home trials OTOH are an absolute must wherever possible. They are probably not possible at the level of Charles's system or other very low volume gear, or if you do not have a local dealer. But I've had home demos of most of the stuff I own. More importantly, I've had home demos of an equal(?) number of products that did not work for me after the high quality extended listening that is only possible at home

[Charles]

Originally Posted by PeterMusic

I agree.

Charles, with all due respect, I think you are conflating a couple of different issues. Manners are very important, and I would certainly not want to be disrespectful.

Home trials OTOH are an absolute must wherever possible. They are probably not possible at the level of Charles's system or other very low volume gear, or if you do not have a local dealer. But I've had home demos of most of the stuff I own. More importantly, I've had home demos of an equal(?) number of products that did not work for me after the high quality extended listening that is only possible at home

Peter, a 1.25KW weighs 158 pounds. You must pay a down payment of about 50% to order one from my dealer. I don't think my dealer even has one on display. It would not remotely be feasible to demo one in my home. Ditto for all my gear. If a dealer is selling a demo that has been in a home for a month without full disclosure, I would have nothing to do with that dealer. The gear has become a used piece and if the manufacturer discovered this, might not cover the warranty as a new piece. It is no longer a demo which by definition stays in the showroom on the shelf and has not been handled by the potential customer other than the remote control. If I were the manufacturer, I wouldn't.

If you can swing in home demos lasting weeks, I have no problem with it and do not doubt your veracity. I am not conflating the two issues. They are separate issues, both of which occur less frequently on AA.

Can you imagine Wilson's or my dealer's response to "I'm sorry, my XVX is not working out. The measurements we made were incorrect. The sound is not as good as my Alexx. I need to return it for a refund." Again, I've been around the block and have bought numerous gear from multiple dealers. The only piece that I can remember was an audition of an XRT28 which I liked but the XRT30 which I bought based on my in home audition of XRT28 had a harsh bright midrange (to my ears) that I could not tame.

You all seem to uniformly skirt the fact that a demo stays in house and except for it being turned off and on and used to demo other in house gear, has been handled only by employees of the dealer. If a dealer allows it out of the store, forget it, I wouldn't have it in my system as it has become a used piece, unless I am made aware of it before I bought it.

If a dealer has a source or sources that will buy "demos" under these circumstances, then in home auditions are certainly preferable if you have the time.

[djcxxx]

There is a new header on the TAS website: Find out why ARC is better than ever. I thought this was very promising and I clicked it to discover a non updated website. Not sure I understand the strategy.

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by djcxxx

There is a new header on the TAS website: Find out why ARC is better than ever. I thought this was very promising and I clicked it to discover a non updated website. Not sure I understand the strategy.

Seem pretty odd.

[lem321]

There's a new interview with Valerio Acora, the new owner of Audio Research, on youtube that I found really interesting. It gives some insight into the company going forward and more importantly, the new leader of ARC.

[PeterMusic]

Originally Posted by Charles

Peter, a 1.25KW weighs 158 pounds. You must pay a down payment of about 50% to order one from my dealer. I don't think my dealer even has one on display. It would not remotely be feasible to demo one in my home. Ditto for all my gear. If a dealer is selling a demo that has been in a home for a month without full disclosure, I would have nothing to do with that dealer. The gear has become a used piece and if the manufacturer discovered this, might not cover the warranty as a new piece. It is no longer a demo which by definition stays in the showroom on the shelf and has not been handled by the potential customer other than the remote control. If I were the manufacturer, I wouldn't.

If you can swing in home demos lasting weeks, I have no problem with it and do not doubt your veracity. I am not conflating the two issues. They are separate issues, both of which occur less frequently on AA.

Can you imagine Wilson's or my dealer's response to "I'm sorry, my XVX is not working out. The measurements we made were incorrect. The sound is not as good as my Alexx. I need to return it for a refund." Again, I've been around the block and have bought numerous gear from multiple dealers. The only piece that I can remember was an audition of an XRT28 which I liked but the XRT30 which I bought based on my in home audition of XRT28 had a harsh bright midrange (to my ears) that I could not tame.

You all seem to uniformly skirt the fact that a demo stays in house and except for it being turned off and on and used to demo other in house gear, has been handled only by employees of the dealer. If a dealer allows it out of the store, forget it, I wouldn't have it in my system as it has become a used piece, unless I am made aware of it before I bought it.

If a dealer has a source or sources that will buy "demos" under these circumstances, then in home auditions are certainly preferable if you have the time.

Hi Charles,

I am confused by your response. I specifically said I do not think a system at your level would be available for demo. You mention weight, but I was thinking cost--I can't imagine many dealers being able to afford your speakers. So no, I would not expect you to have demoed (and I'm certain your system would leave me speechless with joy and amazement).

I did not mean to skirt the other issue of how a "demo" system might be defined and/or sold later. I just think it is a separate topic from whether a person should insist on a demo on components where a demo makes sense. I trust that when my dealer sells a piece of used gear, it is at a fair price relative to its usage, and I would only shop/demo with a dealer I did trust.

Best

Peter