#1
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McIntosh’s Use of Opamps
I was reading over my Baltic 3 manual this morning and can across this …..
“ LampizatOr DAC should not be used with opamp based preamp, no matter how good. Because the op-amp feedback loops will remove the whole joy of music as delivered by the tubed DAC.” I am NOT an expert when it comes to EE knowledge. I’m am ME so this statement has me asking a lot of questions. Question such as: 1) I understand what opamps ARE but what is Lampizator referring to by the statement “opamp based preamp”? 2) More importantly is my Mac equipment considered “opamp based”? If so, is it removing “the whole joy of music”? 3) The path the signal travels is Baltic3 > C2700 > MEN220 > MC601 > 803D3. Is the MEN220 defeating the purpose? My ears tell me adding the Baltic 3 increased my enjoyment of listening so my questions are not for confirmation but more of gathering information for possible tweaks down the road. Any help on the subject would be appreciated.
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Doug 2-Channel McIntosh C2700, (2X)MC601, MEN220 Lampizator Baltic 3 Sonore opticalRendu, SGC sonicTransporter i5 (Gen 3), Roon Thorens TT TD318 B&W 803D3 JL Audio (2x)f110v2 Shunyata Denali/S v2, Alpha v2 PCs, WW Gold/Silver Eclipse Interconnects, Platinum USB Whole House Music Listening Bluesound Vault2i, PowerNode2, PulseMini2i, Pulse2, (3x)Flex 5.2 System Above using Passthru Marantz SR7012 Oppo 205, Apple TV (4th gen), Sony XBR850e65 B&W HTM2 D3 Second 5.1 System Castoffs from Upgrades LRC Paradigm Millenia 20, Velodyne MiniVee 10, KEF surrounds, DefTech AW6500 |
#2
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From multiple personal experiences; your question about the MEN220. I have consistently found that the MEN220 does in fact introduce more issues, than it solves.
So did the late Dan aka jdandy. There are high end room correction devices available; they perform this function completely in the digital domain, however they are quite expensive at $25K. I own, and use two of them. YMMV
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Ivan FLORIDA MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES CAPE COD MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES Last edited by Masterlu; 12-27-2022 at 10:13 AM. |
#3
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McIntosh’s Use of Opamps
Well, yes. IMO.
The MEN220 converts the analog signal to digital then back to analog after running room correction. Ultimately, the sound will only be as good as the DAC in the 220 is capable of since you are hearing the sound of that dac at the end of the day. The Baltic is improving the signal sent to your 2700 and in turn to your 220 but you would be losing a large part of whatever Lampizator sonic signature would be, for sure. Lampizator would never dream their dac output would be re-converted to digital and start from scratch down the line. Same reason I would never use a 220 if I fed a turntable into the preamp, unless my room acoustics were so bad. Try running the 220 in a tape loop if 2700 offers that, then you could switch the 220 in and out of signal path as desired. I think the 2300 offered that feature, no sure about the 2700.
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Preamp: McIntosh C1100T/C1100C, McIntosh MX180 Amp: McIntosh MC611 (2), MC601 (3), MI254 Digital: McIntosh D1100, McIntosh MCT450, Meridian 808v6, Aurender N20, Aurender ACS10, Oppo 203 Analog: McIntosh MT10, Hana Umami Red Phono preamp: Simaudio Moon 610LP, 820S Signal cables: WW Gold Eclipse 7 speaker cables; Shunyata Sigma v2 XLR (2); Sigma v1 XLR (2), Transparent Ref XL (MM2) XLR; WW Silver Eclipse 7 (4) Digital cables: Shunyata Omega USB, Omega Ethernet, Sigma Ethernet; WW Platinum 7 Coax, AES/EBU Switch: Innuos PhoenixNet Power: Audioquest Niagara 7000, Audioquest 5000, Audioquest Dragon, Hurricane PC, Shunyata Alpha HC, AQ NRG Edison outlets, (8) 20 amp dedicated lines, 125 amp subpanel Speakers: Wilson Sasha DAW, Dynaudio Contour 30, Dynaudio Contour 25C Subs: REL s/812 (6), REL s/510 (3) Accessories: HRS M3X2 shelf (MT10), Stillpoints Ultra II v2 w/ bases (21), Ultra SS (12), Mini (12), LPi v1 Sound treaments: Artnovion Last edited by j3brow; 12-26-2022 at 07:41 PM. |
#4
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Hard to comment on the 'op-amp' statement, but I agree with the above posts - re-digitizing a tube-based analog signal appears counter-productive.
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Main - Roon on Synology/Sonos Port/SoTM Neo endpoints; Chord Qutest, Bryston BP-17 cubed with phono option; EAT C-sharp with Ortofon Bronze MM, Bryston cubed Amplifier; Revel F126Be on custom Atocha stands; interconnects by WireWorld, furniture by Atocha Design 'Phones Audeze LCD-3, Bryston BHA-1; Office: Sonos/Roon; OPPO HA-1, Naim NAP100 and PSB Mini-C. Media Room:, Samsung QLED QN90 series, Sonos, OPPO 205, ATI N-core driving KEF LS-50's with REL subs; furniture by Glassisimo; Kids - U-turn for vinyl, Sonos Play5; Summer Shack - Sonos, vintage Pioneer, Dynaudio Special 40's. |
#5
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Quote:
If you are playing vinyl I cannot understand employing digital eq. But vinyl makes no sense to me because all vinyl begins with a digital master. I think Lampizator would frown on digital equalization, preferring minimal to zero digital signal manipulation and a very simple pure discrete signal path. They are my kind of high end company. I have been a Mac aficionado for 60 years. But you must understand Mac. I use a D1100 because it is a dual mono discrete design with two separate power supplies and the MCT500 is a fine transport, both improved significantly by Wilson Pedestals and top of the line power conditioning, power cords and IC's. I think I'm competitive, not better, than Ivan(using him as an example of someone who understands the high end) in this regard. Then I employ simple huge mono amps, extremely expensive cabling, and likewise speakers. Keep the signal simple, protected, and pure always yields the best results. That's why I employ passive room correction only. I think this is the message behind Lampizator's warning concerning op-amps. Best Charles
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__________________________________________ Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest New gear on order: MC2.1KW Anniversary power amplifier; C12000 An preamplifier; MCD12000 An SACD/CD player; AQ 1 meter Dragon balanced IC; 2 meter AQ Hurricane HC power cord; 3 meter AQ Hurricane Source power cord; unspecified 3 meter AQ digital coaxial IC and power cord for my backup MVP851 DVD player given as a surprise gift to me by my dealer Most recent updates: Latest is the last one posted: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals; heating and cooling completely reworked and reinsulated resulting in a much quieter, cooler, and more efficient room (cost about 10,000.00). McIntosh MCT 500 SACD/CD transport; Wilson Audio Acoustic Diode for XVX Chronosonic; WEL Signature digital Coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection replacing the optical connection; New plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; Thor is now off my floor; MC3500MKII mono block amps (2) and two custom granite slabs; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover; new 75-ohm multi-directional FM antenna for tuner; total of eight additional Wilson Audio Heavy (red) pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks; JRiver Media Center 31 Amps: McIntosh MC3500MKII mono blocks (2), McIntosh MC1.25KW’s (3). All amps set on floor on custom made granite slabs Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100 Sources: McIntosh MCT500 SACD/CD Transport, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 31) Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; custom made Wilson Acoustic Diodes Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie; custom plinth of X material with Wilson Acoustic Diode feet; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover Cables main system: Audioquest WEL Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); WEL Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; WEL Signature digital coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for MVP 851 DVD player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Audioquest Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for MR87 tuner Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from ActivXO crossover to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to ActivXO; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box Isolation: Wilson Pedestals for D1100; MVP881 BR player; MCT500 transport; Wilson Audio ActivXO electronic subwoofer crossover; plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; eight Wilson Audio Heavy (red) Pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks (four placed under the rails of each amp) Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump. |
#6
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Quote:
Categorical statements such as this are patently ill-informed and does not help your argument. See below. Just arrived.
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McIntosh MA8000; McIntosh MC1502; Canton Vento Reference 1 DC; E.A.T. E-Flat; Soundsmith Paua Mk II; Technics SL 1210 MK5; Audio Technica AT-150 MLX; Tascam BR-20; Teac X1000R; Pioneer RT-707; Oppo UDP 205; Denon DCD A-100; HP All-In-One Touchscreen Server; JRiver MC 28; Woo Audio WA6; Shure SRH 1840; SVS SB 1000; Jolida 502BRC; Jolida JD9; VPI 16.5 RCM; Wireworld Oasis 8 Speaker Cables; Audoquest Columbia 72 DBS IC's; Panamax PM-5400 (source components only) |
#7
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You are very wrong. The great majority of vinyl is still analog. Thankfully.
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Glenn... Clearaudio SM Pro Focal Bathys JLA 10" Dominion Kuzma Stabi S w/MC & MM Magnepan 1,7i McIntosh MA8950 Oppo 203 Roon Nucleus Rose Hifi RS150B Shunyata Gemini-4 Sony ST-A6B, TA-F6B & PS-X75 Sorane SA1.2 & TA-1L Stillpoints LP1v2 WW Pt, Au & Ag |
#8
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Quote:
#1 “ LampizatOr DAC should not be used with opamp based preamp, no matter how good. Because the op-amp feedback loops will remove the whole joy of music as delivered by the tubed DAC.” It’s utter and complete bullshit of the highest order, repeating an old trope about poorly designed equipment. Lots of great sounding audio gear uses op-amps. I could say the same thing about delta-sigma DAC’s like the Baltic 3. It’s a gross generalization. 2. Some Mcintosh equipment uses op-amps, some doesn’t. The designers choose the correct circuit for the job. 3. The MEN 220 is known to be flawed sonically. Many have tested it in and out of their systems and most say it impacts the sound in a negative way. I would take it out and try it for awhile to see what you experience. Your C 2700 line stages are all tubed so the first non-tubed thing the signal sees is the input op-amps on your MC-601’s. I’ve had the pleasure of listening to the Baltic 3 on my system. It’s a nice DAC, competitive in its price range. Enjoy it in good health!
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#9
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Ivan FLORIDA MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES CAPE COD MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES |
#10
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Hi Doug,
I am not surprised that adding the Lampizator improved your system compared to the C2700 internal DAC, and (as I've opined in the past based on my own disapointting MEN220 home demo) I would not be surprised if subtracting the MEN220 improved things again. If that is the case, you can sell the MEN220...and buy more gear! Good luck Peter
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Clearaudio Ovation with Tracer Dynavector KARAT 17DX Naim Uniti Core Schiit Yggdrasil McIntosh C22/MC275 Wilson TuneTots B&W DB3D Nordost QKore/QBase/Frey 2 Transparent Super IsoAcoustics GAIA II Stax SR-009S with SRM-700T |
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