Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

[Golucid]

On 19 April 2015 I emailed Mat Weisfeld of VPI Industries directly and this morning, 8:13 a.m. Pacific, I at long last received a reply.

Note: I've communicated with Mat over the years, so I still have his email address. Plus, I have talked with him on the phone a few times. Mat is personable, friendly and genuinely a helpful nice guy. Oh, and he's really busy!

Anyway, I sent Mat an email detailing my thoughts very blunt which I will not share here because it would not be appropriate. But, Mat does a great job summing it up politically correct and fairly sanitized. Yeah, a gentle letter but gets that point accross.

My thought: VPI is [and also, ClearAudio] are respected leaders in the industry. I personally find it interesting that they have both not embraced ULTRASonic vinyl care as a solo solution. Though, ClearAudio is using a vibration method...and noteably NON-ULTRASonic but facilitating an alternate sonic technique less aggressive.

Historical info: you can circle back to my recent tests here on AA about my experience using the VPI wet method and the two leaning ultrasonics currently available: VPI | Audio Desk | Klaudio: which RCM is right for you?

My findings are in line with Harry Weisfeld, VPI Industries. For me, arguing with Harry is every bit as fruitless arguing a point with Dan [JDandy]. I would embarrassingly loose.

LETTER FROM VPI INDUSTRIES. ALSO SEE PHOTOS FROM VPI

Hi David,

I'm not sure if I already responded to your email or if I have responded to this specific question so much that I'm loosing my mind

Harry ended up buying all the units out there and ended up not liking them because of the price points and the cleaning job they did. They did nice but not nice enough to justify needing to take out a loan to buy them! Here is a picture of Harry's lab for cleaning. He put together a DIY ultrasonic cleaning machine that cost him about $500 and cleans better. This DIY solution is the exact reason we will NOT be making our own ultrasonic cleaner because it just doesn't make sense and the ultra sonic really needs to be combined with a VPI cleaning machine to seal the deal.

Here is a link to Harry's thread on it all: Harry's Cleaning Process

Hope this gives more insight one how to get the best clean!

---
Sincerely,
Mat Weisfeld

[Whart]

Interesting. I made the same recommendation to people looking to take advantage of an ultrasonic without spending a fortune- buy the V-8 and a good vacuum machine. I think I posted that piece in your other thread.

[Golucid]

Originally Posted by Whart

Interesting. I made the same recommendation to people looking to take advantage of an ultrasonic without spending a fortune- buy the V-8 and a good vacuum machine. I think I posted that piece in your other thread.

+1

[Capcom]

Originally Posted by Golucid

This DIY solution is the exact reason we will NOT be making our own ultrasonic cleaner because it just doesn't make sense and the ultra sonic really needs to be combined with a VPI cleaning machine to seal the deal.

Sincerely,
Mat Weisfeld

David...This is exactly what I would expect him to say....
considering he's in the business of selling RCM's. Does he really want people to buy the expensive ultrasonic machines?...no.

Good for all who DIY and are happy with the results....Good for those who can afford to buy the best..and are happy too.
To each his own.

Also...Harry Weisfeld complaining about needing to take out a loan to buy an Ultrasonic machine really rings hollow
to me. This is coming from a guy who makes a 20k+ direct drive turntable!

I guess its ok with Mr Weisfeld for you to need a loan.... to buy his best!

[Golucid]

Originally Posted by Capcom

David...This is exactly what I would expect him to say.... considering he's in the business of selling RCM's. Does he really want people to buy the expensive ultrasonic machines?...no. Good for all who DIY and are happy with the results....Good for those who can afford to buy the best..and are happy too. To each his own. Also...Harry Weisfeld complaining about needing to take out a loan to buy an Ultrasonic machine really rings hollow to me. This is coming from a guy who makes a 20k+ direct drive turntable! I guess its ok with Mr Weisfeld for you to need a loan.... to buy his best!

Dave you bring up a compelling and valid argument and I totally agree that there is lots of room to wonder if there is an ulterior motive, particularly from a manufacture.

My thought, Harry is passionate all his lifetime about vinyl, he has the VPI name recognition and apparently considered manufacturing an ultrasonic or entertained on some level an alternative cleaning method. Creating a VPI Ultrasonic would be an easy money maker - even if they made a piece of junk.

Myself, combining both achieved breathtaking results. For example, on nearly all vinyl 'used or new' cleaned by either of my $4,000 ultrasonics still leaves debris - and that's ultrasonically cleaning them multiple times at 5 minute intervals. When I use the VPI I pick up debris that is evident on the vacuum tube velvet.

Dave, you are a seasoned audiophile and I would love to explore alternate methods. I hate having to use three machines. So if there is an answer that I am missing, please help. It sucks to spend 15-30 minutes cleaning a single LP/vinyl in order to achieve silence: no snap crack pop and static.

[o0OBillO0o]

Capcom- HI there what do you think about David's conclusion if you're suspicious about HW's response?

VPI + a DIY ultrasonic = A record cleaning solution with great results and less time and money spent.

What should we know about your record cleaning tips?

[Golucid]

I am really excited. An AA member has pulled the trigger and purchased the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic CA DMS)! Yipeeeeeee!

I'm hoping I can send him an LP or two to test. If remarkable, CA DMS here I come and dumping the other RCMs!

[Olskool]

Hi guys, interesting and thought provoking conversation. I, as many of you, have struggled to figure a good strategy to clean my albums, some purchased in the early 70's (they never got cleaned then either). Since embracing the hobby and learning from you guys the value of clean vinyl, I started exploring options starting with Needle Doctors cleaning kit, next to the $99 Spin Clean which was a huge improvement, and now to Dave's V8 solution which is fabulous but does have a learning curve. What temperature is best, how much water / alcohol, what frequency level for ultrasonic cleaning and how long? Finding the right combination left a trail of some warped, some not so clean, some with the edges laying in the bottom of the tank vinyl training wheels. I think what the big expensive units have thought out already is making their solutions just right for vinyl.

As was previously stated by others, each method may still not be 100% perfect. The Ultrasonic V8, once a process is dialed in that is not damaging seems to work very well for my needs. What I really like is that I can clean 60 to 100 albums in a leisurely weekend of cleaning and listening. Dave has developed a dryer that will dry a batch of up to 8 that is a great companion to the V8. I almost bought it till I thought about it a while and realized air drying was no problem. What I really wanted was a way to run a quick, supplemental cleaning on an album already Ultrasonic cleaned. I may have played several times after Ultrasonic cleaning but want to clean up artifacts and surface gunk on just one or two then play them. The V8 is not so easy for this and for my tastes does not flow well to go through the process for an album I want to play now! So, my solution, I just bought a little Nitty Gritty 1.5 which will solve my 1zy 2zy needs for albums already deeply cleaned.

As far as getting a better sound after Ultrasonic cleaning, the first time I heard the difference I would not have believed it if I had not heard and seen it with my own two eyes! We played a dirty album, cleaned it it on an Ultra Desk then put it on the TT with no changes to anything as the system sat idle. The volume seemed to come up at least a couple decibels and was more detailed with more information played from a blacker background. The only explanation we can come up with is the needle gets deeper in the grooves to more available information. I think in the situation described earlier, where the triangles stepped back 10 paces, I wonder if the Ultrasonic process used was either too hot or too high a frequency causing the groove to expand or warp. I think Ultrasonics is the way to go but needs to be thought ought for your needs, as well as budget. Sorry to be so windy but it is a subject with some details. It is only my opinion however!

Olskool

[Golucid]

Originally Posted by Olskool

..."I think Ultrasonics is the way to go"...

That's a really good point!

[MasterLuJr]

I tend to agree with Capcom on this. No manufacturer is going to say a product they don't make is better. That's just simple logic, I don't care if we're talking any product. I could call numerous CEO's and ask them why product "X" they produce is better than product "Y", and they would all be able to give me a logical sound answer. When we get into quality audio products they all, usually, have advantages as well as disadvantages.

Now when it comes to record cleaners I would say that their isn't one perfect machine out there. I've seen, and/or used about all of them out there. My personal favorite is the KL Audio. It does a great job and has unbelievable ease of use. I think one of the major issues with vinyl and cleaning is the production of the actual vinyl. It's not perfect, depending on the mold/when the pressing was done/did any imperfections get into they vinyl from the air during processing(dust,etc).

I'll give you a really interesting example when it comes to vinyl. A customer brought over a record he wanted to hear. We ran it through the KL audio then played it on the system. He loved the way it sounded, but couldn't understand how come he didn't hear a "pop" at one point he had always heard. This customer also had a KL Audio cleaner. So he went home and played the record. Guess what, it had the pop at the same point as he was use too! He ended up upgrading his cartridge. When he went to play his favorite record at his home, no pop! Now could it been the cartridge/stylus causing the "pop", unknown. Maybe it was gone just from more cleanings on the KLaudio. The audio industry, especially vinyl, has thrown some really unexplainable occurrences my way over the years. I will say, without a doubt, vinyl is more popular then ever! I've also found vinyl lovers to have their own particular set of preferences from types of tables/arms/stylus/cables/cleaners/fluids/and I could go on lol These users will swear that the combination they use produce the best sound and that's the beauty to me. Enthusiasts all have different likes and dislikes. At the end record cleaning machines are subjective. No one can truly do a blind test due to the fact of how vinyl pressing is done. David I thought you did a great job on your comparison thread! I think the best anyone can do is list the advantages/disadvantages of a machine/technique for others to take in. Your post truly did a great job at that! One thing probably everyone will agree on is that their isn't any magic machine that can do it all perfect. Maybe vinyl is meant to be imperfect and that's part of its beauty.