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  #21  
Old 02-11-2020, 06:55 AM
Charles Charles is online now
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Simply shows what I have said repeatedly. Conclusions like this: that the Ref 6 or 326 is a better match with a 601 and Sasha 2 than a C1100 based on a dealer comparison are extremely unreliable and not reproducible and quite frankly worse than a waste of time because it creates false information that perplexes those happily owning a C1100/601 combo, and not remotely hearing what you thought you heard. I am not saying your ears were lying but that something, we can never know what, was very unfavorable to the C1100 regarding the setup. And so based on one or two listening sessions at a dealer you have arrived at the above (what I believe to be) erroneous conclusion. It is just as likely that with a correct or more favorable setup, a properly functioning C1100 will sound better with a 601 than the Ref 6 or 326 with a Sasha 2. Good luck with your purchase of the Sasha 2 but for others who are reading this, I would take these conclusions with a very large grain of salt.

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 02-11-2020 at 07:38 AM.
  #22  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:51 PM
gadawg gadawg is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Simply shows what I have said repeatedly. Conclusions like this: that the Ref 6 or 326 is a better match with a 601 and Sasha 2 than a C1100 based on a dealer comparison are extremely unreliable and not reproducible and quite frankly worse than a waste of time because it creates false information that perplexes those happily owning a C1100/601 combo, and not remotely hearing what you thought you heard. I am not saying your ears were lying but that something, we can never know what, was very unfavorable to the C1100 regarding the setup. And so based on one or two listening sessions at a dealer you have arrived at the above (what I believe to be) erroneous conclusion. It is just as likely that with a correct or more favorable setup, a properly functioning C1100 will sound better with a 601 than the Ref 6 or 326 with a Sasha 2. Good luck with your purchase of the Sasha 2 but for others who are reading this, I would take these conclusions with a very large grain of salt.

Charles
Wow ... Guess the old post really got you going? The only thing that is a total waste of time is just assuming something works better because someone said so either way. You should always trust your ears more than anyone's opinion or vendor specifications or others "facts". I have since moved on to something I like even better but several others I know voted with their wallet and included a preamp with their MC-601 not of McIntosh making. Others have purchased the C1100 and I think that each person after demo'ing the products in their system bought what they thought sounded best to them and that is the ONLY thing that matters. If after reading my post your take away was that I was claiming something was "better" than something else then either I need to learn how to write better or you need to learn how to read better ... probably some of both I would imagine ... All I was saying was that don't always believe what everyone tells you (including me!) and listen for yourself because you might just be surprised. If you are saying that there is no value in listening for yourself and to just accept a particular combination will always sound better and is in fact the only right way to setup a system ...

George
  #23  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:53 PM
gadawg gadawg is offline
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Originally Posted by gbuitend View Post
Hi George,

Thanks for the interesting post.
You listened to the ML 326S and I was wondering which Amplifier you used in the combination with this pre-amp.

And, am I correct to say that the MC601 is an integrated Amplifier, so no separate pre-amp was used?
You are quite explicit in the way how you described the MC601 as the next level of the ML 326S and I wonder if it was just a source and this MC601?

Thanks!
Guido
Hi Guido ... the amplifier was the McIntosh MC-601 which are mono block amplifiers and not an integrated. The ML326S was one of the preamps that I listened to that day. All separates. Hope that answered your question.

George
  #24  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:15 PM
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edward3132 edward3132 is offline
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For what's its worth.

I have auditioned the 601's with Focal Maestro EVO speakers in my own listening room with the following preamps: C2300, C500, C1100, ML 526, and Ref 6 in that order.

To my ears, the Ref6 was best overall. Again everyone who may have had the opportunity to audition the same preamps in their system may come out with different opinion.

Ed
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Last edited by edward3132; 02-12-2020 at 03:18 PM.
  #25  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:22 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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George, I think unless I miss understood that someone in this thread based on your comments used the words "chopped liver" for the C1100. The Ref 6 was reviewed by MF Stereophile 11/23/2016. It got a good review, not a stellar review being described as having a polite top end and lack of air on violins. It is almost routine on this website for the superiority of AR over Mac to be noted and becomes tiresome.

In general dealer demonstrations are very unreliable. I have found it remarkable how "dealers" are willing to pull expensive gear in this case three preamps and reconnect. A listening session like you describe would have to last at least 6 hours to do any justice at all. And probably at least 45-60 minutes for connections and listening to exactly the same material at exactly the same volume. Even a decibel of difference makes a huge difference.

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 02-12-2020 at 07:29 PM.
  #26  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:39 PM
gadawg gadawg is offline
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Charles ... you are correct about the length of the listening session. Seems you assumed I didn’t spend all day there. And I never said the C1100 was chopped liver. That said I’ve never really connected with it like I did older generation macs but that’s just my preference and just because I don’t care for it doesn’t mean I’m wrong or something is wrong with the setup. I just don’t care for it. Period. Doesn’t mean it’s not great. Many don’t like my current preamp which is the BAT Rex II but it does it for me and I couldn’t care less who likes it or not. At any rate ... I was simply sharing my observations and I’m sorry if my lack of enthusiasm for the C1100 was offensive in any way. Hopefully we can all still be friends! Peace and joy brother.

George
  #27  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:15 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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Originally Posted by gadawg View Post
Charles ... you are correct about the length of the listening session. Seems you assumed I didn’t spend all day there. And I never said the C1100 was chopped liver. That said I’ve never really connected with it like I did older generation macs but that’s just my preference and just because I don’t care for it doesn’t mean I’m wrong or something is wrong with the setup. I just don’t care for it. Period. Doesn’t mean it’s not great. Many don’t like my current preamp which is the BAT Rex II but it does it for me and I couldn’t care less who likes it or not. At any rate ... I was simply sharing my observations and I’m sorry if my lack of enthusiasm for the C1100 was offensive in any way. Hopefully we can all still be friends! Peace and joy brother.

George
George, I'm not upset in the least. I'm fairly well known by my dealer, to say the least. I would never dream of tying up their main listening room for 8-10 hours and handling all that expensive equipment or tying up a technician. I don't believe I have ever listened to anything more than 10-15 minutes and then out of curiosity. I know better than to form conclusions based on a dealer showroom.

What you did was take one snapshot when what is needed is 100 photographs to form a valid conclusion that means anything, to draw an analogy.

I would like to comment on the sound of McIntosh tube equipment. Mac tubes sound very similar to Mac SS. The difference is subtle, not striking.

When the C-1000 was reviewed in Stereophile, one of the most memorable conclusions was to that effect.

Also, Mac autoformer amps sound tubey to some extent.

AR used to in times past make SS gear, lots of it. It never caught on. Mac has been making tube gear far longer than AR. While this in and of itself doesn't mean Mac superior to AR, Mac tube technology goes back far longer than does AR and certainly is competitive with AR today. Mac is not intimidated in the least by AR or awed by AR.

To some extent AR digital is liken to old AR SS. Only AR aficionados would consider it.

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 02-12-2020 at 11:22 PM.
  #28  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:50 AM
tima tima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadawg View Post
... You should always trust your ears more than anyone's opinion or vendor specifications or others "facts". ...
Exactly.

I applaud you for giving your take on three pieces of gear not all the same brand. We need more of that.
  #29  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:51 AM
gadawg gadawg is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
George, I'm not upset in the least. I'm fairly well known by my dealer, to say the least. I would never dream of tying up their main listening room for 8-10 hours and handling all that expensive equipment or tying up a technician. I don't believe I have ever listened to anything more than 10-15 minutes and then out of curiosity. I know better than to form conclusions based on a dealer showroom.

What you did was take one snapshot when what is needed is 100 photographs to form a valid conclusion that means anything, to draw an analogy.

I would like to comment on the sound of McIntosh tube equipment. Mac tubes sound very similar to Mac SS. The difference is subtle, not striking.

When the C-1000 was reviewed in Stereophile, one of the most memorable conclusions was to that effect.

Also, Mac autoformer amps sound tubey to some extent.

AR used to in times past make SS gear, lots of it. It never caught on. Mac has been making tube gear far longer than AR. While this in and of itself doesn't mean Mac superior to AR, Mac tube technology goes back far longer than does AR and certainly is competitive with AR today. Mac is not intimidated in the least by AR or awed by AR.

To some extent AR digital is liken to old AR SS. Only AR aficionados would consider it.

Charles
Charles ... again you assumed that I only listened to the C1100 once and only in a dealer show room to form my single snapshot as you called it. When I got around to looking to upgrade preamps while I still owned my 601's I listened at the dealers several times as well as at home to the C1100 along with three other preamps and no ... it didn't sound as good to me as the other preamps I was considering. I'm not saying your conclusions aren't valid because you like it so please don't insult me by suggesting mine are any less valid because I don't agree with your opinion or your methodology. Since you pretend to know how I make buying decisions here you go ... When I'm really unsure about a component ... I'll often buy my top couple of choices and live with all of them for several months before making any final decisions then sell off the others. Doing this with quality used gear doesn't result in too much loss and for me is a lot of fun and I end up with a system that sounds the best in my room regardless of brand. Right now I have no thoughts of upgrading anything ... other than my speakers maybe getting bigger soon but that's another story!

Also ... you seem to be thinking I'm some sort of AR guy? I'm not at all. Don't own any currently and not likely I will in the near term unless they introduce a Reference 50 Pre ( or Ref 11) and I like it better with my setup than the BAT. Its good product though as is McIntosh as are many other brands. The DAC 9 I used to own ended up not working out so Ivan helped me into a stack of Esoteric Digital that will not be going anywhere anytime soon!

Again ... everyone should listen to lots of different options if they can ... hopefully at home in the context of their environment and make choices based on the beauty that particular setup creates for them and just don't assume someone else's combo is ever the right choice ... trust your own ears!

George
  #30  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:52 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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Originally Posted by gadawg View Post
Charles ... again you assumed that I only listened to the C1100 once and only in a dealer show room to form my single snapshot as you called it. When I got around to looking to upgrade preamps while I still owned my 601's I listened at the dealers several times as well as at home to the C1100 along with three other preamps and no ... it didn't sound as good to me as the other preamps I was considering. I'm not saying your conclusions aren't valid because you like it so please don't insult me by suggesting mine are any less valid because I don't agree with your opinion or your methodology. Since you pretend to know how I make buying decisions here you go ... When I'm really unsure about a component ... I'll often buy my top couple of choices and live with all of them for several months before making any final decisions then sell off the others. Doing this with quality used gear doesn't result in too much loss and for me is a lot of fun and I end up with a system that sounds the best in my room regardless of brand. Right now I have no thoughts of upgrading anything ... other than my speakers maybe getting bigger soon but that's another story!

Also ... you seem to be thinking I'm some sort of AR guy? I'm not at all. Don't own any currently and not likely I will in the near term unless they introduce a Reference 50 Pre ( or Ref 11) and I like it better with my setup than the BAT. Its good product though as is McIntosh as are many other brands. The DAC 9 I used to own ended up not working out so Ivan helped me into a stack of Esoteric Digital that will not be going anywhere anytime soon!

Again ... everyone should listen to lots of different options if they can ... hopefully at home in the context of their environment and make choices based on the beauty that particular setup creates for them and just don't assume someone else's combo is ever the right choice ... trust your own ears!

George
George, I'm not meaning to insult you. I'm not upset with you. I'm sorry you have taken my criticism this way (personally as an insult).

Just using it as an example, a C-1100 costs 11,000.00, it's a very expensive piece. Top of the line Mac pre. As soon as it entered your home it became a demo and a used piece, if it wasn't a demo already.

So let's assume it was a demo. It takes an amazing dealer(s) to allow his valuable demos to be away from his store for a week or a month or longer? That's a lot of time off the display away from the store, especially since you heard it at the store repeatedly and didn't particularly like it and had less than a 50% chance (it certainly seems) of buying it. It is a fact you did not buy it.

It's a very complicated thing to get even a piece like a C-1100 safely home and into your rack. I'm very impressed with the way you buy equipment and with your dealer(s).
Hypothetically, buying a C-1100 and a Ref 6SE and a ML 526 and selling off two of them down the road would be pretty impressive.

If I'm the dealer and I think you (using "you" in the generic sense) just want to audition for the sake of it, how many potential sales would I lose while I'm waiting patiently for "you" to finish your in home audition, especially if I have given "you" two other of my demo preamps? All my display systems would be without preamps.

I live in a fairly large city (about a million). There is one maybe two serious high end dealers in my region. It takes a large investment to have demos on display. Unless he has changed my dealer displays Mark Levinson and McIntosh exclusively.

Now I'm not insulting you, criticizing you, or questioning your veracity. Or criticizing how you make your buying decisions in any way. Actually, I'm very impressed by your methods and logic. I'm glad you can provide me your listening impressions and what you have said has enlightened me greatly.

Last edited by Charles; 02-13-2020 at 02:27 PM.
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