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  #11  
Old 03-13-2021, 09:55 PM
2fastdriving 2fastdriving is offline
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Originally Posted by George Prentice View Post
I Have a REF 160s amp, REF6se Preamp, and REF3 Phono stage... the thing that instantly brought the digital side together was the REF9se DAC/CD player. Suddenly the whole chain just snapped into harmony.

I did all the other changes first, the change from 5SE to 6SE was last... the main boost was when all components became ARC REF. Then the 6SE was introduced during breaking of the other components.
Awesome, George! Congrats on a fantastic system. I have esoteric in my mix, for digital and also my phono pre. Great combo as well.

I think my next speakers will be more resolving, but the arc stays.
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  #12  
Old 03-14-2021, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by djcxxx View Post
I had very similar thoughts recently. Guess a lot of us grew up with audio in the 1970s. Our local high end dealer was Audio Art in Richmond, VA. I was a TAS devotee in college when they were “underground” and eschewed advertising. So between TAS and Audio Art I entered the world of ARC and Magnepan. As many of you remember these were the days of Apogee, Acoustat, Quad, and Magnepan Tympani series along with massive tube amps from ARC. There was only vinyl as far as high end was concerned.
I am really surprised at how similar experiences many of us have had. It was a set of Acoustic 2+2's that I took home that I could not power that set me on a path of massively powerful solid state amps in about 1979. I found TAS then, and I think it was there review of the Threshold ?250?... what ever was the infamous and powerful amp of its time. When current instead of watts became the measure. Pass's first big amp. I took out my first bank loan to buy it. But then I couldn't afford the Acoustat 2+2... ended up with Apogee a while later. Amazing how the same stuff comes up.
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Main: Aurender W20SE music streamer, ARC REF 9SE DAC / CD, Linn LP 12, Koetsu Rosewood SignCartrige, ARC REF 3 Phono Stage, ARC REF 6SE Preamp, ARC 160s amp, Sonus Faber Amati Traditional Speakers,Transparent Ultra IC & SC Library:Aurender N100, Ayre QB9 2020 DAC, Woo WA5-LE amp upgraded tubes, Focal Utopia HP, Sennheiser 800s HP, LCD HP.

Last edited by George Prentice; 03-14-2021 at 12:29 AM.
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  #13  
Old 03-14-2021, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by djcxxx View Post
I came away with the (not surprising really) conclusion that audio equipment can never fully and consistently replicate the experience of live instruments. There maybe fleeting glimpses of illusion from an audio system, and cognitive dissonance is a powerful influence on the human mind, but after 50 years in this hobby, for me the goal (TAS) remains as elusive as ever.
I have been to many a live music event where, in comparison, my home audio system delivered a better sonic performance, but still have enjoyed the live music more and at a much deeper level. Live music performance is a shared social experience; while for most of us listening to recorded music is not. Audio is largely a solitary obsession: we usually listen alone. How interested in audio is your wife/significant other? Or your regular friends? Your kids? Your Uncle? When we attend a live music event as part of an audience, we usually identify with the crowd and feel a satisfying sense of shared tastes and possibly other values, too. It is gratifying and self-affirming. At a live music event our attention wanders between listening to the music and the visual presentation of the musicians and audience. A large part of the fun of live music is simply watching what the performers are actually doing on stage. You don’t have these social and visual elements while sitting in a listening room in front of the speakers (even with our pencil necked, pocket protector audio buddy). Without social and visual competition for your attention, you have more cognitive resources available to think hypercritically about the sound quality coming from the rig. Consequently, it is easy to work yourself up into an unhappy state about soundstage, or dynamics, or transparency, or into any of the many other forms of gear related audio-angst. The only way to combat this, other than keeping a mixed dish full of Prozac and Valium on the table next to your sweet spot, is to listen to recorded music as a “model”, knowing that it will never be a perfect recreation of a past musical reality. Two speakers will never reproduce the acoustic sound field of a symphony orchestra playing in a concert hall or a jazz combo jamming in a small bar room. I think the quest to “recreate the music event” is a hopeless and frustrating enterprise, not to mention financially ruinous. You must be willing to enjoy recorded music in the same sense that obsessed model airplane builders or model railroaders enjoy their own form of the “miniaturists disease”. They know that their fetish objects are not “real” airplanes or locomotives – these often wonderfully built toys cannot fly with passengers on board or pull freight across the country. But nevertheless, the model airplane and toy train nuts admire their replicas for what they are: finely crafted facsimiles which possess beauty of form and function in their own right. This seems to be the only way to approach recorded music without becoming perpetually dissatisfied: accept recorded music for what it is and see its beauty in miniature. It can still have great beauty in its own right. You can always make the model a bit better, maybe even make it “way cool”, but it will never fly to Montreal or pull that train of boxcars.
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  #14  
Old 03-15-2021, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper View Post
I have been to many a live music event where, in comparison, my home audio system delivered a better sonic performance, but still have enjoyed the live music more and at a much deeper level. Live music performance is a shared social experience; while for most of us listening to recorded music is not. Audio is largely a solitary obsession: we usually listen alone. How interested in audio is your wife/significant other? Or your regular friends? Your kids? Your Uncle? When we attend a live music event as part of an audience, we usually identify with the crowd and feel a satisfying sense of shared tastes and possibly other values, too. It is gratifying and self-affirming. At a live music event our attention wanders between listening to the music and the visual presentation of the musicians and audience. A large part of the fun of live music is simply watching what the performers are actually doing on stage. You don’t have these social and visual elements while sitting in a listening room in front of the speakers (even with our pencil necked, pocket protector audio buddy). Without social and visual competition for your attention, you have more cognitive resources available to think hypercritically about the sound quality coming from the rig. Consequently, it is easy to work yourself up into an unhappy state about soundstage, or dynamics, or transparency, or into any of the many other forms of gear related audio-angst. The only way to combat this, other than keeping a mixed dish full of Prozac and Valium on the table next to your sweet spot, is to listen to recorded music as a “model”, knowing that it will never be a perfect recreation of a past musical reality. Two speakers will never reproduce the acoustic sound field of a symphony orchestra playing in a concert hall or a jazz combo jamming in a small bar room. I think the quest to “recreate the music event” is a hopeless and frustrating enterprise, not to mention financially ruinous. You must be willing to enjoy recorded music in the same sense that obsessed model airplane builders or model railroaders enjoy their own form of the “miniaturists disease”. They know that their fetish objects are not “real” airplanes or locomotives – these often wonderfully built toys cannot fly with passengers on board or pull freight across the country. But nevertheless, the model airplane and toy train nuts admire their replicas for what they are: finely crafted facsimiles which possess beauty of form and function in their own right. This seems to be the only way to approach recorded music without becoming perpetually dissatisfied: accept recorded music for what it is and see its beauty in miniature. It can still have great beauty in its own right. You can always make the model a bit better, maybe even make it “way cool”, but it will never fly to Montreal or pull that train of boxcars.
Interesting, and thought provoking post; what is your all time best home audio system/experience consist of that you are basing your reference on?
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MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
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Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
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  #15  
Old 03-15-2021, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sleeper View Post
I have been to many a live music event where, in comparison, my home audio system delivered a better sonic performance, but still have enjoyed the live music more and at a much deeper level...
You bring up a subject I have found fascinating. I attended many rock concerts in the late '60s and '70s... then jazz in the '80s. They were fantastic... I was young. But, I tired of the bad sound in amplified settings, sometimes bad acoustics. Also, the older I got the less I liked the social settings. Finally in this century I found (could afford) season tickets to the symphony and loved it... first because of the entirely acoustic but also because of the order... I know my seats, everyone knows the rules. (I have been an business executive for most of my career... I got plenty of social interaction and conflict at work). I more recently have still been exposed to Rock concerts at high-tech conferences... I usually left after a few minutes. I do not get a thrill at watching someone play. I definitely do not get a thrill be being with a mass of strangers, many yelling and making noice... I never went to football games... or any sports for that matter. I like climbing mountains and SCUBA diving... etc. I have been a nerd since childhood, but one with high EQ allowing me in the C-suite in large corporations.

But the distortion! and noise... and if you are to close, too loud, to distracting. On very infrequent occasions a sound guy would really get it right and you are in the right seats. Small intimate jazz ensembles, those are usually great... unless someone is pointing a trumpet right at you.

I managed to get my last system to so closely match the orchestra experience I couldn't tell the difference if I was in the orchestra hall or at home (minus differences in recording and the acoustics of the actual hall in which they were recorded).

For me, I would much rather be at home listening. I am finding the performance of my system very satisfying. I do look forward to the Fall when our symphony again performs. I am not typical, I know that, never have been... I'm happy with that.
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Main: Aurender W20SE music streamer, ARC REF 9SE DAC / CD, Linn LP 12, Koetsu Rosewood SignCartrige, ARC REF 3 Phono Stage, ARC REF 6SE Preamp, ARC 160s amp, Sonus Faber Amati Traditional Speakers,Transparent Ultra IC & SC Library:Aurender N100, Ayre QB9 2020 DAC, Woo WA5-LE amp upgraded tubes, Focal Utopia HP, Sennheiser 800s HP, LCD HP.
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  #16  
Old 03-15-2021, 04:16 PM
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For rock concerts, and big jazz events, the statement above that a good home system might provide better sound is true.

But for classical, especially large scale orchestral music, played in a good concert hall, even the best systems (like an MBL Reference System), are only able to give you a (good) impression of how it really sounds.

Like you, I also like to sit, with my beloved wife, in the front rows.
We usually take (took?) the middle of the 5th row.
It's fantastic to hear and see the musicians in action.
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  #17  
Old 03-15-2021, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Masterlu View Post
Interesting, and thought provoking post; what is your all time best home audio system/experience consist of that you are basing your reference on?
My current home audio system, in brief, consists of two B&W 802D3s driven by a pair of Bryston 7B3s, with an ARC Ref 5SE preamp coordinating a variety of digital and analog sources. I enjoy it every day. The main limitation is my room, which is an acoustically untreated living room, set up mainly as a music room with a love seat sofa and a single guest easy chair, with equipment racks, CD and LP storage cases, etc. And of course, glass windows and artwork on the walls. Putting more and better high end gear in this environment is not likely to push the system performance a whole lot higher. I think that I'm way past the point of diminishing returns.

I developed my model plane analogy years ago when I had a pair of Matrix 801s driven by older ARC and Bryston gear, after attending a Leo Kottke concert put on at a local movie theatre, and thinking to myself "This sounds terrible. It's tinny and muddled. I spent 20 bucks to listen to something live that sounds less lifelike than the CD player at home!" Still, I enjoyed the event for the reasons that I outlined in my post above, social camaraderie, Kottke's jokes, etc.

The all time best system I have ever heard was a pair of Sonus Fabers driven by an all-ARC top of the line front end, in a large acoustically tuned dealer demo room. The room made it work.
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Old 03-16-2021, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sleeper View Post
The main limitation is my room, which is an acoustically untreated living room, set up mainly as a music room with a love seat sofa and a single guest easy chair, with equipment racks, CD and LP storage cases, etc. And of course, glass windows and artwork on the walls. Putting more and better high end gear in this environment is not likely to push the system performance a whole lot higher. I think that I'm way past the point of diminishing returns.
I lucked out on buying the house we live in. The space for my system is large, highly irregular in shape, underground on front and side walls making it dead silent. This is probably the single greatest component in my system. Any thought of moving is immediately discarded because I would never be able to find a place as good. Also, the audio room is so isolated that my partner is not woken up regardless of the volume, she is a light sleeper and sleeps during the day. As they say, it is better to be lucky than good... I was really lucky!
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Old 03-16-2021, 09:53 PM
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I lucked out on buying the house we live in. The space for my system is large, highly irregular in shape, underground on front and side walls making it dead silent. This is probably the single greatest component in my system. Any thought of moving is immediately discarded because I would never be able to find a place as good. Also, the audio room is so isolated that my partner is not woken up regardless of the volume, she is a light sleeper and sleeps during the day. As they say, it is better to be lucky than good... I was really lucky!
One of the first things I ask people who want advice about purchasing new audio equipment is "Where are you going to put it?" If the stuff is going into a really bad room and will be used mainly for background music, I tell them to buy cheap and simple. The room is everything. A few years ago, I listened to the million dollar audio system, demo'd by a well known high-end dealer, at AXPONA in really lousy room. I was expecting to be transported, but it just sounded a little better than OK, not bad, but nowhere near what it should. You are probably getting the best out of your setup and thus you are indeed a lucky audio-nut!
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Old 03-17-2021, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sleeper View Post
. You are probably getting the best out of your setup and thus you are indeed a lucky audio-nut!
Yes I am!

I have also heard a lot of good equipment in acoustically bad places. I have also noticed that a lot of people (myself included) buy big systems that outsize the space they are in... I think it is a natural thing to do (my -20 degree sleeping bag... when +30 was unusually coldest temp)... maybe anticipating a future big room or just reading to many reviews. Right sizing can make for a fantastic system in a small space... when putting a big set of Magico’s in a closet would sound terrible. One of the best systems I have heard was in a room smaller than a medium large closet by today’s standard. It was done by right sizing and great knowledge on how to craft the acoustics.
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Main: Aurender W20SE music streamer, ARC REF 9SE DAC / CD, Linn LP 12, Koetsu Rosewood SignCartrige, ARC REF 3 Phono Stage, ARC REF 6SE Preamp, ARC 160s amp, Sonus Faber Amati Traditional Speakers,Transparent Ultra IC & SC Library:Aurender N100, Ayre QB9 2020 DAC, Woo WA5-LE amp upgraded tubes, Focal Utopia HP, Sennheiser 800s HP, LCD HP.

Last edited by George Prentice; 03-17-2021 at 02:14 AM.
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