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Subwoofers 80hz and Down under!

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  #31  
Old 10-14-2021, 12:07 AM
Charles Charles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobie1dog View Post
130hz is not an EXTREMELY high x-over fq. The 15" size could very well be a 18" or 12" woofer in another design and isn't close to being a monstrous driver in todays or yesterdays woofers. Remember the white polymer cone driver in the Hartley Reference? A 70's design, it was 24 inches in diameter with a mass of only 58 grams. They used them in the double stacked QUAD electrostatic speaker system by Mark Levinson.
It's a common myth that size determines "Woofer Speed", which is false. Read this white paper on the subject written by of the worlds best speaker designers Dan Wiggins:
https://adireaudio.com/wp-content/up...an-Wiggins.pdf
Dan designed all of Apple/Mac speakers, Sonos, and many high end drivers for the best of high-end audio companies.
You can have a short throw, low mass, large cone driver with low inductance like most PA woofers which as I mentioned before that can operate up in the 2-3K hz range with great fidelity. All the great cherished 1940's RCA theater systems still collected by serious audiophiles for their totally realistic bass, mid-bass, and midrange, again crossed over to a multi-cell horn at 2K hz.
Or you can have a high inductance, high mass, long throw design which makes it harder to push the cone and come back quickly to a stop, thus destroying the SQ in the mid-bass area, which is solved by keeping it from reproducing anything above, say...60hz which usually the reason for a x-over point below 80hz. It's all about INDUCTANCE ( think of a very powerful magnet to tightly control the cone of the driver that determines how clean/fast/tight...etc it is.) When JL came out with their W7 subwoofer which is the original Fathom. This type of design they used only one word in their advertisements which was "TIGHT". at a car stereo event that I attended years ago they put the W7 driver in a Volkswagen Beetle for their demo car but the company across the aisle from them would demo their woofer which was much more accurate and Tighter sounding , then they would get done with their demo and tell people to go across and sit in the VW Beetle and then come back and let them know what they thought, and everybody came back and as one guy commented "man that is one boomy subwoofer"


High INDUCTANCE designs act in the same manner of worn-out Springs on a 57 Lincoln Continental as you compress and want the spring to come back and immediately stop, but it doesn't , it goes up and down and up and down till it finally slows down and returns to the original position. The exact same thing happens with speakers of a very small magnet/ high inductance design that cannot control the driver, so the driver doesn't stop moving by the time another signal is put in causing very large amounts of distortion and boom. Sizes of drivers are relevant. Just like the TOTL Legacy Valor, 86K dollar speakers that uses a 14" Midwoofer, 14" Bass, and (2) 12" subwoofers.
So the answer to your question as to how can a 15in woofer accurately reproduce frequencies up to 120-130hz is in the above article. Drop the names Subs,Woofers,Mid-bass and look at only how accurate the driver is in that specific range, no matter what name you call it. All the hundreds of speakers through the years that have used a driver of this size crossed over WAY farther up have done so because they used accurate drivers with very fast transient response. These are designs that don't get "muddy/boomy" when used above 80hz or so. Gold Sound years ago designed their High Fidelity speakers using a quick and accurate JBL/very low inductance figure woofer (usually 15 inches) and they would run them up to 400 Hertz and then it would be crossed over to the mid-range driver which would always run from 400 Hertz to 2,500 Hertz so that there would be no Crossovers in the critical vocal and mid-range area.

We are interested in this discussion. I'm sure Ivan appreciates you asking for his specific input.
Thank you so much for this explanation, which I am sure is correct. My memory stirs me that in the large Legacy systems they employ huge drivers that look like woofers but are actually mids. I hope everyone will read this comment. Extremely interesting because when you think of sealed subs you think 3" excursions and 8K watts but the M9 is sensitivity 94 dB. Mr. Wolf must really know his stuff. I have never liked sealed systems because of the extremely high excursions needed. Your explanation rings true. Thank you.

Best

Charles

p.s. I honestly have never noticed visible movement from my XVX woofers no matter the bass frequency. At first I thought there was something wrong with the speaker. Even before your explanation I realized they were designed for high output with little to no excursion. I had forgotten the Legacy Valor. I have always associated sealed systems with high excursions and I have been very incorrect. Of course my XVX is ported but the thought is the same: Minimize the excursion if possible to produce the desired frequency.

Last edited by Charles; 10-14-2021 at 12:34 AM.
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  #32  
Old 10-15-2021, 02:38 PM
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Default Mid-bass subwoofer?

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Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Nice long post. But it’s about location not capability/technology.


@crwilli I’d be interested on some data on the importance of location. Can you point me to some? Thanks.
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  #33  
Old 10-15-2021, 02:46 PM
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@hobie1dog thanks for your comments, thoughts and link to that article by Dan Wiggins. That article and your comments also ring true to me.
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  #34  
Old 10-15-2021, 02:55 PM
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It’s true the term subwoofer technically means a speaker that produces the frequencies below what a woofer can. Hence the name subwoofer.

So in that sense My title for this thread of “mid-bass subwoofer” is indeed an oxymoron.

However, over the years it seems (to me anyway) that the term subwoofer has come to mean any bass driver that is in a cabinet by itself, regardless of the frequency range it is intended to operate at.

And it is from that definition I named this thread.
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2nd SYSTEM: Roon > Mac-mini > iFI Gemini USB cable > McIntosh MAC6700 > Sonus Faber Venere 3.
3rd SYSTEM: Roon > MacBook Pro > WW Starlight-7 USB cable > Peachtree Audio Nova300 > Focal Chorus V 705V bookshelf speakers with matching Focal Chorus SW 700V subwoofer.
4th SYSTEM: Tidal > iPad Pro X > USB > Schiit Audio Gungnir multi-bit DAC > XLR > Schiit Audio Mjolnir2 > Focal Clear headphones (4-pin XLR).
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  #35  
Old 10-15-2021, 05:49 PM
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Default Mid-bass subwoofer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the1010boy View Post
@crwilli I’d be interested on some data on the importance of location. Can you point me to some? Thanks.


I think with a little energy spent, you will find many articles on setting up subwoofers. It is well understood that low frequencies (generally accepted to be 80Hz and below) are difficult to locate in the typical audio room. Above 80Hz and our brains can ‘locate’ the source of the sound.

So if the goal is to integrate your subs with your mains, you do not want your brain to ‘see’ low bass coming from a point which is away from your mains. Worst case as an example; if you use a 130Hz crossover point and place your sub behind your listening position, your brain will ‘see’ the kick drum / bass guitar etc. behind you. That would totally screw up your soundstage.

That is why myself and others have said using 130Hz for your crossover is too high.

It has nothing to do with whether a driver of any size is capable of reproducing 130hz with low distortion.

I come back to my first suggestion.

Work extra hard to find the location in your room where your Venere S produce the absolute best bass they can. Then integrate your Fathom. Chances are you can use a crossover point that is significantly peer than 130Hz.

As others have said, having your room measured and finding out the opportunities to improve your listening position as well as the position of your Venere S. You may be seating in a poor position for bass.

I know of one expert in Room Setup who starts with finding the best listening position in a room for bass before he does anything else.

Good luck

Here’s ONE place for sub setup. Barry Ober worked at JL Audio. Google ‘sound doctor’.
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Last edited by crwilli; 10-15-2021 at 08:27 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-15-2021, 10:18 PM
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unless you have a stereo room that is a completely dedicated room with nothing else in it then you're listening position is only at a very small spot. It is not going to be very far to the left or to the right. You're going to be sitting close to the centerline of the room between the two speakers and if it is in a standard living part of your house then you are very limited on where these pieces of furniture( yes speakers are nothing more than pieces of furniture that have to be positioned in the room to coincide with all of the other pieces of furniture). They are only going to go so far on either side of the fireplace, on either side of a doorway or patio doors. bathroom doors, closets, as there isn't a whole lot of flexibility to where the speakers are actually going to go because of the floor space and the other pieces of furniture like couches and tables etc., in the room. Most working-class Americans who live in regular sized homes usually do not have large dedicated listening rooms that allow you to have your speakers 6 ft away from the front wall as an example when your room is only 14 to 15 ft deep. same thing for positioning your speakers left and right in your room if your room is only 14 ft wide and you have a stereo rack in the middle or a TV then you're not going to be able to have a large amount of options for putting the speakers left to right.
For sub positioning, again somewhat determined by your limited options if it is in a living part of the house, the easiest way is to put the sub on a small movers Dolly and while you listen have somebody move the subwoofer but simply pushing it along the floor /carpet while you listen to the spots where it will fit.
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Last edited by hobie1dog; 10-15-2021 at 10:22 PM.
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  #37  
Old 10-16-2021, 10:51 AM
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Yes, I agree. We all have to compromise to varying degrees. That doesn’t change the goal to optimize your listening and mains position. Just do it within your space ‘budget’. Inches matter.
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  #38  
Old 10-20-2021, 02:23 AM
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Default Mid-bass subwoofer?

So… I’ve moved my speakers around (within my room’s limitations: picture window, fireplace, etc) and no space was any better for my speakers than where they were before (no other location gave any more pronounced bass).

(BTW, my Venere are the Venere 3, …NOT the Venere S. I’m sure the Venere S would put out more bass.)

Similarly I played around with various locations for the JL Fathom (again within the limitations of my room) and NOT a single location allowed the Fathom to play well above 50hz. …thus not blending any better with the Venere 3 than before.

Therefore, since the Tannoy PS350 sub that I used to own paired so wonderfully well with the Venere 3 I am of the opinion that I’ll need to search for a Tannoy-PS350-like sub and bail on the Fathom. …& just move the Fathom back to be paired again with my B&W 800 D2.

As for my bookshelf speakers (Focal Chorus 705V) in my home office on a shelf flanking my computer monitors… they don’t have any other locations to go to. So, for their sake, I think I’m going to just buy another Tannoy PS350, since that sub paired so well with them.

I shouldn’t have messed with my system & sold my Tannoy sub. …but, as seems common with this hobby, I just couldn’t leave well enough alone.
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MAIN SYSTEM: Roon > Mac mini > WW Starlight 7 USB > Yggdrasil multi-bit DAC > WW Eclipse-8 XLR > McIntosh C2300 > WW Eclipse-8 XLR > McIntosh MEN220 > WW Eclipse-8 XLR > McIntosh MC452 > WW Eclipse-8 speaker cables > B&W 800 D2 with a JL Fathom F113 v1.
2nd SYSTEM: Roon > Mac-mini > iFI Gemini USB cable > McIntosh MAC6700 > Sonus Faber Venere 3.
3rd SYSTEM: Roon > MacBook Pro > WW Starlight-7 USB cable > Peachtree Audio Nova300 > Focal Chorus V 705V bookshelf speakers with matching Focal Chorus SW 700V subwoofer.
4th SYSTEM: Tidal > iPad Pro X > USB > Schiit Audio Gungnir multi-bit DAC > XLR > Schiit Audio Mjolnir2 > Focal Clear headphones (4-pin XLR).

Last edited by the1010boy; 10-20-2021 at 02:25 AM.
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  #39  
Old 10-20-2021, 11:35 AM
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thanks for the update
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