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  #11  
Old 02-15-2023, 10:46 AM
Porsche993TT Porsche993TT is offline
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you can take a decent speaker and make it sound great with the right gear, you can take world class speaker and it be mediocre if the rest of the system is not up to par

i would estimate 25-40% on speaker, rest on gear, really depends on room size and climate goal
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  #12  
Old 02-15-2023, 01:25 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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I think this is an excellent question but also one that has no definite answer. It's a matter of individual taste and trial and error. For me, it's the speaker. For a reviewer like Stephen I can certainly appreciate and understand his choice of an excellent full range speaker for his personal system that will reveal the nuances of different cords, conditioners, IC's, amps, sources, etc.

In addition there may be some folks that prefer the emphasis on other than the speaker. I think Ivan's view is the conventional wisdom and Stephen's the valid dissenting viewpoint.

I would go with choosing a balanced approach with good power from the wall, good connections (conditioners, cords, IC's), good amps and sources, and good speakers with a slight emphasis on the speaker. And you must not forget the room. I prefer an approach with passive room treatments unless the room is horrible. This means no active equalization like a MEN220 or tone controls. No bi-amping initially.

The high end is a journey. You must discover the part of the system your ears like the best, but neglecting power, cords, and conditioners is IMO a mistake.

Best

Charles
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Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
New gear on order: MC2.1KW Anniversary power amplifier; C12000 An preamplifier; MCD12000 An SACD/CD player; AQ 1 meter Dragon balanced IC; 2 meter AQ Hurricane HC power cord; 3 meter AQ Hurricane Source power cord; unspecified 3 meter AQ digital coaxial IC and power cord for my backup MVP851 DVD player given as a surprise gift to me by my dealer
Most recent updates: Latest is the last one posted: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals; heating and cooling completely reworked and reinsulated resulting in a much quieter, cooler, and more efficient room (cost about 10,000.00). McIntosh MCT 500 SACD/CD transport; Wilson Audio Acoustic Diode for XVX Chronosonic; WEL Signature digital Coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection replacing the optical connection; New plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; Thor is now off my floor; MC3500MKII mono block amps (2) and two custom granite slabs; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover; new 75-ohm multi-directional FM antenna for tuner; total of eight additional Wilson Audio Heavy (red) pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks; JRiver Media Center 31
Amps: McIntosh MC3500MKII mono blocks (2), McIntosh MC1.25KW’s (3). All amps set on floor on custom made granite slabs
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCT500 SACD/CD Transport, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 31)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; custom made Wilson Acoustic Diodes
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie; custom plinth of X material with Wilson Acoustic Diode feet; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables main system: Audioquest WEL Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); WEL Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; WEL Signature digital coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for MVP 851 DVD player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Audioquest Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for MR87 tuner
Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from ActivXO crossover to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to ActivXO; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals for D1100; MVP881 BR player; MCT500 transport; Wilson Audio ActivXO electronic subwoofer crossover; plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; eight Wilson Audio Heavy (red) Pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks (four placed under the rails of each amp)
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump.

Last edited by Charles; 02-15-2023 at 01:30 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-15-2023, 02:37 PM
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Puma Cat Puma Cat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clpetersen View Post
All good points. It is a system after all. Don't forget the room limitations and your options for treating those.
The biggest contributing factor to the "sums of squares" of the transfer function is the room...
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Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.
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  #14  
Old 02-15-2023, 02:40 PM
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Puma Cat Puma Cat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregam View Post
(Not knowing your system) Another vote for speakers.


Quite. And if your speakers aren't up to the task, you won't hear what your system is already doing!
Good point about eliminating noise, but the SN ratio for digital players & amps is quite good nowadays (and mains noise can be addressed later with an isloation transformer or similar)/
Respectfully, S/N doesn't have much to do with it...all the "specs" that Hirsch-Houck Labs used to publish in Stereo Review may have some "statitistical significance" but generally, they are not "practically significant". And most of the time, "practically significant" is what really matters in the Real World, where we all actually live and listen, not in some audio testing laboratory. Cheers.
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Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.

Last edited by Puma Cat; 02-15-2023 at 02:43 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-15-2023, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
I think this is an excellent question but also one that has no definite answer. It's a matter of individual taste and trial and error. For me, it's the speaker. For a reviewer like Stephen I can certainly appreciate and understand his choice of an excellent full range speaker for his personal system that will reveal the nuances of different cords, conditioners, IC's, amps, sources, etc.

In addition there may be some folks that prefer the emphasis on other than the speaker. I think Ivan's view is the conventional wisdom and Stephen's the valid dissenting viewpoint.

I would go with choosing a balanced approach with good power from the wall, good connections (conditioners, cords, IC's), good amps and sources, and good speakers with a slight emphasis on the speaker. And you must not forget the room. I prefer an approach with passive room treatments unless the room is horrible. This means no active equalization like a MEN220 or tone controls. No bi-amping initially.

The high end is a journey. You must discover the part of the system your ears like the best, but neglecting power, cords, and conditioners is IMO a mistake.

Best

Charles
Good post, Charles. Balance is good. All enginering involves a set of functional tradeoffs and compromises. This is because there are no perfect transducers, no perfect source components and thus, no perfect transfer functions. All transfer functions are subject to the influence and impact of noise factors.

And when it comes audio reproduction, everything is a transfer function (so is the Universe, for that matter, but I digress...).

Having been on this journey for over 4 decades, I've found that signal integrity and mitigating the influence and impact of noise factors is key and foundational. The world's best transducer (i.e. speaker) cannot add signal nor eliminate the impact of noise factors upstream. All it's going to do is transduce the impact of those noise factors "better" than a speaker with a lower engineering specification. But...what it can't do is remove upstream noise, hash, grunge, grit, grain, common-mode, phase noise, ground-plane noise, triboelectric noise, the impact of resonance or vibration, replace signal that's lost or corrupted, or fix the acoustics of a bad room.

It's a system...and the component parts INTERACT.
__________________
Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.

Last edited by Puma Cat; 02-15-2023 at 02:56 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-16-2023, 11:41 AM
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W9TR W9TR is offline
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Speakers, definitely. No question.

It’s true that GIGO (garbage in equals garbage out) careful selection of well engineered upstream components will reduce noise to inaudible levels.

A close #2 or I could even argue #1, would be to have your listening room analyzed and treated to remove deficiencies.
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  #17  
Old 02-16-2023, 12:40 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
Good post, Charles. Balance is good. All enginering involves a set of functional tradeoffs and compromises. This is because there are no perfect transducers, no perfect source components and thus, no perfect transfer functions. All transfer functions are subject to the influence and impact of noise factors.

And when it comes audio reproduction, everything is a transfer function (so is the Universe, for that matter, but I digress...).

Having been on this journey for over 4 decades, I've found that signal integrity and mitigating the influence and impact of noise factors is key and foundational. The world's best transducer (i.e. speaker) cannot add signal nor eliminate the impact of noise factors upstream. All it's going to do is transduce the impact of those noise factors "better" than a speaker with a lower engineering specification. But...what it can't do is remove upstream noise, hash, grunge, grit, grain, common-mode, phase noise, ground-plane noise, triboelectric noise, the impact of resonance or vibration, replace signal that's lost or corrupted, or fix the acoustics of a bad room.

It's a system...and the component parts INTERACT.
Stephen, I am sure that you understand audio better than me by at least an order of magnitude. I am going to start paying close attention to your reviews and comments on AA. I have been very fortunate. As a child I fell in love with the old Mac sound: C-22, MC225, Bozak Concert Grand. It just pleased my ears. It was amazing. My father was much more intelligent than me. He was a chemical engineer (masters N.C. State, worked on the first two atomic bombs, ran the largest munitions factory in N.M during WWII etc.). He wired the system and installed it into his living room. The MC225 drove the Grands wonderfully and they were hidden in an enclosed cabinet, not visible and certainly poorly ventilated for years.

When the MC3500 came available I knew I had to have a pair and I have not been disappointed. So for me my audio journey became coaxing the best out of my reference Mac gear, which I understand is not the very best. I chose not to chase the very best or latest in power, cords or connections but I found that AQ in the form of WEL Signature, Dragon, Niagara performs extremely well and is extremely expensive. My connections and power are significantly more expensive than all my Mac gear. Then of course there is my XVX, Thor, plinth for Thor, and my Wilson Pedestals under all my Mac source gear. My system is essentially finished. I wouldn't know how to improve it.
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Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
New gear on order: MC2.1KW Anniversary power amplifier; C12000 An preamplifier; MCD12000 An SACD/CD player; AQ 1 meter Dragon balanced IC; 2 meter AQ Hurricane HC power cord; 3 meter AQ Hurricane Source power cord; unspecified 3 meter AQ digital coaxial IC and power cord for my backup MVP851 DVD player given as a surprise gift to me by my dealer
Most recent updates: Latest is the last one posted: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals; heating and cooling completely reworked and reinsulated resulting in a much quieter, cooler, and more efficient room (cost about 10,000.00). McIntosh MCT 500 SACD/CD transport; Wilson Audio Acoustic Diode for XVX Chronosonic; WEL Signature digital Coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection replacing the optical connection; New plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; Thor is now off my floor; MC3500MKII mono block amps (2) and two custom granite slabs; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover; new 75-ohm multi-directional FM antenna for tuner; total of eight additional Wilson Audio Heavy (red) pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks; JRiver Media Center 31
Amps: McIntosh MC3500MKII mono blocks (2), McIntosh MC1.25KW’s (3). All amps set on floor on custom made granite slabs
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCT500 SACD/CD Transport, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 31)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; custom made Wilson Acoustic Diodes
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie; custom plinth of X material with Wilson Acoustic Diode feet; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables main system: Audioquest WEL Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); WEL Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; WEL Signature digital coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for MVP 851 DVD player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Audioquest Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for MR87 tuner
Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from ActivXO crossover to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to ActivXO; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals for D1100; MVP881 BR player; MCT500 transport; Wilson Audio ActivXO electronic subwoofer crossover; plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes; eight Wilson Audio Heavy (red) Pedestals placed under the MC3500MKII mono blocks (four placed under the rails of each amp)
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump.
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  #18  
Old 02-16-2023, 01:03 PM
Imapo Imapo is offline
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The best bang for the buck upgrade I have done is having Stirling Trayle (https://www.audiosystemsoptimized.com) come out and spend a couple of days optimizing my system. The results were truly amazing.
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  #19  
Old 02-16-2023, 04:07 PM
bodiezaffa bodiezaffa is offline
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Definitely speakers but make sure they match the size of your room.
Putting the wrong size speakers - too big or too small - will ruin all your trying to achieve.
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  #20  
Old 02-16-2023, 07:50 PM
Xtraheadroom Xtraheadroom is offline
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Wow. Love all the information I’m hearing hear. Thank you all so much.

So here’s the skinny…….

Current gear

Mac MA9850
Lumin T2 w/ SBooster
Founders 100F speakers
Tributaries interconnects
Tributaries bi-wired speaker wires

Going to audition B&W Diamond 804 D4’s
and Sonus Fabre Olympica Nova III.

Room is rather small 10’w x 16’ D. Some wall
treatments on side and rear behind gear.

I’m looking for better distinction and resolution. I’m not saying
I’m entirely unhappy with the Paradigm speakers just thinking that an ungrade
here is where I may discover the largest impact.

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks again,

Bob
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