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  #11  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
Hi Georges,

Well, because they claim their approach is "scientific", when from the perspective of someone who spent 40 years as a professional scientist, they are anything but scientific. Why? Here are a just a few reasons:

1) Before the EtherREGEN even launched, or could be listened to, and/or tested by anyone they were trashing it by unequivocally stating it could not possibly improve sound quality, indicating that they were biased and un-objective. A real scientist does not bias themselves before conducting an experiment; they make conclusions from facts and data AND, and this is important part, put into the correct context by the appropriate statistical analysis of the data. A scientist designs a proper experiment to be as free from any sources of bias as possible.

2) They do virtually no, and I mean no, statistical analysis: they don't state or provide what the appropriate statistical analysis method would be for the evaluation (would be it a proportions test, a two-tailed T-test or ANOVA? who knows, 'cause they don't say). Furthermore, regarding the a "statistical foundation" (if you could call it that) for their test methodology's, they don't state, with statistical rigor what "differences" they are trying to detect are practically significant, let alone not stating from their "analysis" what is statistically significant. Ever see a p-value or R^2 and R^2 Adj. from a regression analysis from them. No? Funny, I never have either.

2) They have never conducted a statistically valid Measurements System Analysis (MSA) for their test methodology. They don't conduct the correct foundational analysis to determine 1) their smallest effective measurement increment, 2) the % Contribution that their measurement system contributes to the overall Study variance, that is, the sums of squares of the MS system divided by the sums of squares of the Study to report an F-statistic (all data sets contain noise, some contain signals), nor do they report the Operator*Part interaction, or nor the Within Operator*Operator repeatibility statistics nor the between Operator*Operator reproducibility statistics. Bottom-line: My guess is they wouldn't know an MSA if it smacked them upside the head.

3) They conduct their "analysis" with a sample set of an N=1 on one unit. No scientist in their right mind makes a "scientific conclusion" based on sample set of 1, run 1 time. This is not science.

4) One of the key differentiators of the EtherREGEN is the fact that it does not pass high-impedance AC leakage currents onto the ground plane of the analog square wave voltages that actually comprise a "digital signals' (no 1s and 0s are transmitted). They don't test for the degree of high-impedance AC leakage currents because they don't have the bespoke test equipment that is reqired to do so, nor would they know how to actually build the equipment if they wanted to test for high-impedance leakage currents.

5) They provide no statistical foundation and correlation (R^2 and R^2 Adj.) for the impact of high-impedance leakage currents on clock phase noise. In fact, they don't measure clock phase noise at all.

I could go on, but those are just 5 reasons for starters.

Cheers.

Stephen, if I understood everything, I would probably agree with all of your statements, except for the number of reasons.
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  #12  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bart View Post
Stephen, if I understood everything, I would probably agree with all of your statements, except for the number of reasons.
Yep, there a number of other reasons I could provide, but I think the top 5 makes the point.

Their fundamental premise, that we can only hear what is measurable, is fundamentally flawed. This view actually dates back to the late 50s and early 60s, when Julian Hirsch of Stereo Review was arguing against the "rogue" band of audio reviewers at Stereophile stating this CRAZY idea they could hear differences in amplifiers that all measured the same with respect to frequency response. Ironically enough, Stereo Review wasn't even listening to the products they were reviewing, just compiling features and specs and conducting lab tests e.g. frequency response and THD. So, when J. Gordon Holt was saying that he could clearly hear the differences between an Audio Research D-76 and a Crown DC-300, and that the D-76 sounded BETTER, that sent the traditional mag editors into a tizzy because the D-76 had higher %THD and wasn't as "flat" as a Crown DC-300. Why does an Amperex 6922 Bugle Boy sound different than a Siemens 6922 when they are exactly the same tube specification? Audio Science Review has no answer.

Of course what is specious about this view is the fact that we can hear everything we can measure, but we can't measure everything we can hear. Ever see a measurement for "soundstage" or "stereo image"? Nope.

The bottom line here, of course, is that "reductionist science" cannot everything we know to be "real". Reductionist science can't even explain gravity or magnetism, let alone the sensation of being stared at or the fact that most dogs wait (in advance) for their owners to come home. Yet, we all know these things to be true.

"There is more to Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your Philosophy." - Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 02-16-2020 at 05:04 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2020, 05:10 PM
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Not to hijack a thread, but... if you are skeptical but curious about Ethernet switches, you can experiment for $70. Might be fun and enlightening.


My switch story:
I heard a difference this summer in a switch test.

First, I do not understand how low packet loss could be an issue given protocols and buffering techniques used by major streaming services (see TIDAL behavior screen shot attached from a capture -- of course if peoples systems have intervening streaming to other devices who knows). TIDAL appears fragmented, like HLS which someone said TIDAL uses, which allows lots of time for drops and retransmitts of those fragments. Experiment with connecting/disconnecting your streamer for short intervals (assuming its software doesn't get upset) and see it keeps playing. Please share details of how low packet loss/jitter could cause issues (I like to learn to improve my setup, and its part of the hobby) -- privately is OK too. Of course high packet loss could cause disruptions.

Second, I do believe there could be other interference issues causing audible problems and wanted to try eliminating those inexpensively. Starting with an inexpensive shielded cable given all the crazy going on in my cabinet. As we all know, a shielded cable without ground is also called an antenna -- and I suspect that lack of cable grounding is why people often get different performance out of many high end Ethernet cables. To introduce a shielded cable easily, I needed a different switch than my consumer grade dlink.

So I decided to purchase an old used Cisco WS-C3560-8PC-S off ebay ($60), and a shielded cable off Amazon ($10). Why the 3560? 1) It is widely available and inexpensive used. 2) It properly grounds shielded cables. 3) It is engineered and supplied with a power cable such that no additional ground is needed (most consumer switches are not -- if there isn't a ground cable going in on the power cord, and you haven't attached to a supplied ground on the switch, then it is not grounded). 4) In hopes it was well engineered (enterprise class, additional POE attention paid, internal power supply, fanless, and I have had these in some harsh environments over the years). 5) It has a management interface and port mirroring that I situationally believe... mostly.

The two scenarios:

A) dlink router --> dlink switch --> streamer
dlinks on house power, streamer on PS Audio P15 regenerator

B) dlink router --> dlink switch --> 3560 --> streamer
dlinks on house power. 3560 and streamer on different P15 banks.

B sounded better than A, so I kept it since then.

Why? I don't know. Perhaps I'm just suggestible (I hear differences with power cables). Would a different cable work better? I might try one at some point. But for electrical interference, not packet loss. Would fiber isolation help? It could reduce noise (if it exists) into the 3560, and I might try it at some point (the switch has an SFP port). Would clock chips on the switch matter? I don't understand how in the context of streaming protocols (until explained). Could poor clocks add interference? Perhaps. Will I try an EtherREGEN? Not just now (chasing other improvements), perhaps in the future. Some things people talk about in the EtherREGEN context do not make sense to me (does not mean they are not correct, but give me pause).

Despite mirror ports and switch counters, I don't know what the Innuos streamer ultimately receives on its interface. On a MacMini off the dlink, I don't see errors at 20Mbps (iperf/UDP tests) on the internal network, but do over 200Mbps. I didn't try to engineer the whole path as I can't look at the whole Internet -- so that last part doesn't really matter for drops as long as they would be low level.

Its hard to work with my cabinet (I have to pull gear out to change cables), so I don't want to do a bunch more testing. And no, I did not try the dlinks off the P15.

To the greater glory of this shared hobby!
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  #14  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:19 PM
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Mumbo Jumbo Aside; any point accumulated in forward direction is a gain!
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  #15  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:22 PM
clpetersen clpetersen is offline
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Kubla - the older Cisco switch looks excellent (but I think you drove up the price on eBay )

Can this be run as a simple unmanaged switch?
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Last edited by clpetersen; 02-16-2020 at 10:39 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-16-2020, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clpetersen View Post

Kubla - the older Cisco switch looks excellent (but I think you drove up the price on eBay ) Can this be run as a simple unmanaged switch?

I don’t know of one but haven’t researched. I suppose you could ground the braid/shield of the cable yourself. But you would not get any other filtering benefits the second switch may bring to bear (independent power supply). Twisted pair Ethernet is transformer isolated, but I regularly see switches smoked be nearby lightening. So enough voltage will cross that isolation. Perhaps EMI does also.

Make sure you use the exact part number on the bay or you will see higher end product. The price will come down. These are old, no telling how much longer they’ll run.
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  #17  
Old 02-16-2020, 10:26 PM
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Even though Ethernet is transformer coupled by design and definition the transformers themselves will allow capacitive and inductive coupling of high frequency noise across the transformer.
Packet loss is not an issue in switched Ethernet unless some thing is very wrong.

Noise injection is a real issue that needs to be mitigated if you are using Ethernet or for that matter WiFi which has another set of problems.
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  #18  
Old 02-29-2020, 09:34 PM
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Default EtherREGEN Review up at Hans Beekhuzen

After viewing the excellent review by Hans, I bit the bullet and added an EtherREGEN between my ethernet switch and Aurender N10 streamer. I was floored by the improvement in sound quality while streaming either Tidal or Qobuz. The music became more holographic. Cymbal clashes sounded as if they were suspended in midair in front of me. Vocals became even more lifelike and bass was noticeably deeper in my system. My soundstage sounds better than ever. I am definitely keeping my EtherREGEN!

Last edited by salamander; 02-29-2020 at 11:14 PM.
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  #19  
Old 02-29-2020, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by salamander View Post
After reading the excellent review by Hans, I bit the bullet and added an EtherREGEN between my ethernet switch and Aurender N10 streamer. I was floored by the improvement in sound quality while streaming either Tidal or Qobuz. The music became more holographic. Cymbal clashes sounded as if they were suspended in midair in front of me. Vocals became even more lifelike and bass was noticeably deeper in my system. My soundstage sounds better than ever. I am definitely keeping my EtherREGEN!
Yep, its really good. EtherREGEN is defineitely a keeper!
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