AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > B&W Speakers

B&W Speakers Bowers & Wilkins Greatest

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 05-26-2015, 04:41 PM
Jagman Jagman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 205
Default

After weeks of listening, including full weeks at both taps, with detailed notes I have come to some conclusions.

My week of listening and note taking started with 8 Ohm connections. The sound has plenty of energy, sizzle, slam if not a too lean sound on some recordings. Bass lights seem a tad tighter, but not as full. Cymbals have more sheen but almost too feathery. Kick drum has more punch but again sounds thinner. Lastly vocals are crystal clear but sound almost as if the singer is singing a half octave above natural. The music can be driven at the same volume level with almost exactly 4% less vs 4 Ohm, I.e., 36% vs 40% on the preamp. The best way I can sum it up is that the sound seems more charged and crisp, but also a bit dry and sterile on most recordings. Most important, as much as I tried to resist, the music would become more fatiguing and less musical. It just wasn't as sweet and natural sounding.

A week of 4 Ohm listening with notes started out in a now predictable manner. I had to pump up the volume approximately 4% to get same sound level. Music was quite a bit fuller, richer, smoother with a tad less tight bass, but overall more of it. That's not to say bass was ever bloated, just had a hair less punch. Again I'll say vocals, piano, percussion, etc., sounded to me like how the artist and producer likely intended it to sound. I never felt any listener fatigue what so ever. The music was lush, smooth, and rich.

The areas that would cause me to question or wonder what a piece of music would sound like on either of the connections were typically dependent upon type of music, and that is where a bit of consternation would occur ever so slightly. For example, on acoustic recordings like Uncle Tupelos classic "March 16-20 1992", there is really no question that 4 Ohm taps sound much better, with an emphasis on the much. One Steely Dan's "Two against nature", with electric bass, guitars, keyboards and miked saxophone, the 8 Ohm tap delivers a more energetic sound with more punch and sizzle. That's not to say 4 Ohms sounded bad by any means. What it typically requires in a good 4 to 5% bump in volume. At that level you get almost all the slam and punch with the fuller sound.

I believe there have been two things at play with this analysis. One is the perception of more power on tap at 8 Ohms and the feeling that I was giving some of that up with 4 Ohms. I needed to accept there was need for more volume gain with 4 Ohms and not fret over that.

The second is the issue of Mcintosh itself, autoformers and/or the need for more powerful amps with Mcintosh amps than other brands. I doubt if the MA8000 was 500wpc vs 300wpc I would have ever felt the need to experiment to this level due to a less likely high degree of difference. As it stands at 300wpc, the 8000 may be on the cusp of power, where the difference is more noticeable than ideal. I can only suggest that the use of Autoformers vs the amp producing greater levels as required along the frequencies plot line may complicate things a bit vs being an asset in totality. All in all I do love the Mcintosh sound and at 4 Ohms, it sounds like what I've heard in a Mcintosh amplifier much more so than at 8Ohms. I just wish at times it operated liked my old Classe CA301 where there was no opportunity to select a particular tap, but the amp would double its power rating etc., since I don't ever recall having this issue before. Just a thought.
For now I'm content again listening to the 4 Ohm taps and fully appreciate the more natural, smooth and silky sound it delivers.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:19 PM
EfeTe's Avatar
EfeTe EfeTe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 1,132
Default

Thanks a lot for your comprehensive description of the 2 weeks, Jag. Whatever the technical reasons (and +4% aside), it looks like 4 Ohms taps does the trick for you and the musical / non-fatiguing aspect es the one making the difference.

Enjoy your CM10's this way man. I had CM5's for years and loved every day with them.
__________________
Diapason Astera/McIntosh MA6600/PS Audio DSJr & DMP/Clearaudio Emotion SE.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-27-2015, 07:07 PM
Jagman Jagman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EfeTe View Post
Thanks a lot for your comprehensive description of the 2 weeks, Jag. Whatever the technical reasons (and +4% aside), it looks like 4 Ohms taps does the trick for you and the musical / non-fatiguing aspect es the one making the difference.

Enjoy your CM10's this way man. I had CM5's for years and loved every day with them.
Thanks EfeTe...now I just need settle in with the CM10's and stop dreaming about 803D's
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-27-2015, 08:02 PM
tdelahanty's Avatar
tdelahanty tdelahanty is offline
Audio,Trains & Mustangs
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman View Post
Thank you! Do you recall experimenting with Ohm connectivity while you had the MA7000? When connected to 4 Ohm on these 8 Ohm speakers, I would not call them bright at all either. Only with 8Ohm connections do they start approaching, and in some cases reaching bright levels, but still are amazing in their dynamics, punch and absolute clarity.

I am about 18" from the back wall and I know ideally I should be further out still but real world family room issues exist, and I believe I have them farther out than some can manage. The cables are Audioquest and were being used with the Rotel MK 1582 MKII, both speakers and interconnects. They are only a little over a year old. I may check with dealer and see if he thinks new or different would be in order, but doesn't seem like they should.

Thanks again for your input and advise...much appreciated!!
Have you considered the possibility that your new system is just more revealing? Gear of this quality and 10 to 15 yrs newer may be revealing more detail and the poor state (quality) of today's recordings.
__________________
System: ML:5206,5302 Serafino's Nordost Lumin U1 RM15
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-27-2015, 08:56 PM
EfeTe's Avatar
EfeTe EfeTe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 1,132
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman View Post
Thanks EfeTe...now I just need settle in with the CM10's and stop dreaming about 803D's
You shouldn't!

Got 805D's at the moment and cannot help but dream about the 803's myself ...
__________________
Diapason Astera/McIntosh MA6600/PS Audio DSJr & DMP/Clearaudio Emotion SE.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-27-2015, 09:32 PM
Indytown Indytown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman View Post
Thanks, I will check that out. In the meantime, I did switch back to 4 Ohm taps. Interesting in that while I'm connected to 8 Ohms, my head is thinking that 4 Ohms is vastly inferior sound, while the truth is, both sound outstanding, but 4 Ohm is just smoother, more robust bass but maybe a hair less tight, the vocals aren't as in your face but more relaxed and in many ways more natural sounding. The overall tone of the 4Ohm connections is fuller/richer but clearly not as detailed and accurate maybe?

Somehow, regardless both connections have their own distinct sound and truly create a very different listening experience, and I just can't decide which one I prefer. I know that to my ears, the 4 Ohm tap offers a wonderfully rich non fatiguing sound and if I had not ever connected to the 8 Ohm tap I doubt I would have ever questioned which is the one best suited to the speakers. It is interesting that B&W said 8 Ohm but some prefer 4 Ohm connections, just personal preference. Mcintosh said either was fine but I got the impression they really like the 4, based on the impendece plot line of these speakers, and the 800 series for that matter. Almost all of the bass requirements are below 4 Ohms, and my speakers drop down to 3.1, with a nominal rate of 8 Ohms.

My confusion still exists because I feel 8 Ohms provide the current that really wakes the speakers up, but it offers a more clinical perhaps even sterile sound, while the 4 Ohm offers a lush, smooth, full sound but I'm now aware that some of the highs are smoothed out, presenting less tonal accuracy. I just can't remember what my Classe CA301 offered as far as taps, but I don't believe there were multiple taps or any choices to be made. So all my attempts at speaker positioning etc. haven't done much to change the tonality of the speakers, it really just seems to me to be all about the Ohm connectivity.
There was a discussion some time ago while Ron from McIntosh was on the forum here. He mentioned that the nominal 8 ohm of B&W's 800's is increased by 3db going from 4 to 8 ohm taps. More SPL basically across all ranges.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-27-2015, 10:36 PM
Jagman Jagman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdelahanty View Post
Have you considered the possibility that your new system is just more revealing? Gear of this quality and 10 to 15 yrs newer may be revealing more detail and the poor state (quality) of today's recordings.
Really haven't. Since my Classe and Hales gear, I went with a Rotel 1582 MKII and listened to it for about 4 months before buying the Mac. I've been pretty used to high quality sound and it's more nuanced than that. It's likely my room more than anything, but the difference isn't small in any event. My speakers like the 4Ohm tap. I'm really thinking most B&W's are more of a 4 Ohm speaker than 8 Ohm, regardless of nominal impedance.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-27-2015, 10:42 PM
Jagman Jagman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indytown View Post
There was a discussion some time ago while Ron from McIntosh was on the forum here. He mentioned that the nominal 8 ohm of B&W's 800's is increased by 3db going from 4 to 8 ohm taps. More SPL basically across all ranges.
No question about it. Giving up power isn't something I like to do, but it's where I find the most listening pleasure. I'd be lying if I said I don't care that volume is cut at 4 ohm connections though. Did Ron ever go on record with his thoughts regarding B&W speakers and Mac amps/Ohm connections?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-30-2015, 04:46 PM
Indytown Indytown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman View Post
No question about it. Giving up power isn't something I like to do, but it's where I find the most listening pleasure. I'd be lying if I said I don't care that volume is cut at 4 ohm connections though. Did Ron ever go on record with his thoughts regarding B&W speakers and Mac amps/Ohm connections?
Jagman, I can't recall that far back.

I would believe it would depend on what sounds good to you with your particular speaker.

A 4 ohm tap for CM would sound different on 804, 803 or 800's.

I would make sure you are happy and content with your source, pre-amp and then experiment with your taps. Make sure all is burned in well and speakers spiked.

Finally you can tweak and finalize the sound with appropriate cabling.

Just some thoughts.

Last edited by Indytown; 05-30-2015 at 04:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:54 AM
Jagman Jagman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indytown View Post
Jagman, I can't recall that far back.

I would believe it would depend on what sounds good to you with your particular speaker.

A 4 ohm tap for CM would sound different on 804, 803 or 800's.

I would make sure you are happy and content with your source, pre-amp and then experiment with your taps. Make sure all is burned in well and speakers spiked.

Finally you can tweak and finalize the sound with appropriate cabling.

Just some thoughts.
Indy...thanks for the thoughtful considerations! I'm pretty good on all and the amp is the MA8000 Integrated. I'm using Audioquest cables, so I suppose that is one area I could consider a tweak. I used Cardas Golden Cross for years with very good results. I sold all of the cables last year, along with the old Classe Amp, pre-amp, processor and CDP and Hales speakers when we downsized after the last kid was out. I lost a dedicated listening room but gained the whole house
All in all I'm pretty satisfied with my setup, (for the moment), just don't tihink I'll ever be content until I get back to speakers on the scale of the old Hales Trascendance 8's. Those are speakers that easily compare to B&W 803D's, with a similar price point of $10k, but that was way back in 2000. I'm not sure what they would go far today since Paul Hales went out of business around 2005. I do know that the speakers and the 300wpc Classe amp were the best sound I've ever owned, after owning Martin Logan SL-3's through out a good chuck of the 90's. I also loved them, but nothing like the Hales.
I've come to realize that while the CM10's are pretty incredible at the $4k price point, there is quite a leap between them any good speaker in the $10-$15k price range. I also have a nagging thought that while the MA8000 is perfectly capable of powering larger speakers, I would not be content until I had more power on tap, and I'm not ready to upgrade amps.

Last edited by Jagman; 05-31-2015 at 09:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:54 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video