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  #21  
Old 01-23-2020, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
+1 on that Stephen!
Yup...
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2020, 02:30 PM
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Okay, no we're startin' to cook with gas.

Using integrated power, RMS is giving me a functional response in my DOE that has a good F-statistic and p-value for the model as a whole. This DOE was comparing vibration with my Gumby sitting on its stock feet, the Herbie's Tenderfeet on the audio rack top shelf by itself vs. Gumby sitting on a maple board on its stock feet vs. the Tenderfeet.

"The power of DOE compels you."

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Last edited by Puma Cat; 01-23-2020 at 02:34 PM.
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2020, 02:36 PM
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What's interesting in the above graphic is that the board*footer interaction is statistically significant, with 99% statistical confidence.
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  #24  
Old 01-23-2020, 07:10 PM
John Jordan John Jordan is offline
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Stephen-

Have to admit, this is boggling my mind! Having studied it all several times for the past 10 minutes or so, it seems the maple does more harm than good? Or am i miss-reading your numbers?

Thanks!!!
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  #25  
Old 01-23-2020, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by John Jordan View Post
Stephen-

Have to admit, this is boggling my mind! Having studied it all several times for the past 10 minutes or so, it seems the maple does more harm than good? Or am i miss-reading your numbers?

Thanks!!!
Hi John,
Um, kinda-sorta. What the data in this model says that, when the Gumby DAC is on the maple board, the Tenderfeet don't bring any statistically significant improvement over using the stock Gumby feet.

But, there's a complication: this is known as a "confounding factor" in DOE-land: the maple board was resting on...the cork & rubber anti-vibration pads! So, they very likely had an impact on the effect of using the maple board, regardless of the footers under Gumby.

So, I have to figure out another design to "de-convolve" (i.e., separate out) the impact of the anti-vibration pads as a factor, separately. One way to do this modify the design so that the footers are evaluated at three levels (actually 3 discrete factors), instead of just two.

The other way I could do it is to use another type of footer under the maple board, e.g. hardwood blocks, the MIGs, or...use no footers under the maple board at all, etc. Then I could examine 3 factors instead of two and run the DOE at 2 levels instead of 3 levels for one factor, footers.

Still thinking about what the best design would be....

At, at the end of the day, I still have to listen to it. A key principle is you have to do a real-world test of your model. It could be that while the maple board may not reduce the transmitted power from vibration to the DAC, but it may bring other attributes or qualities that just make the system sound better. I can tell you my Denali 6000/S V2 sounds better on a nice piece of rock maple than it does just on the shelf or...on the living room carpet (where it sounds not very good at all...).

One way to think about this is: why are Stradivarius/Guanerius violins made in Cremona in the 18th Century prized for their sound over modern violins? Its because the wood the the violin's body was made out of in the 18th Century was made from wood from old-growth forests. Those forests don't really exist anymore, and the wood modern violins are made from is "new growth" forest and has a diifferent density and other qualities from "old-growth" wood.
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 01-23-2020 at 07:35 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:16 PM
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Stephen-

OK, I continue to re-digest your report.

I use a rack I designed and built using maple butcher block shelves. For a while, i used a "prototype" made from an old TV cabinet. the shelves were formica covered particle board say 3/4" thick. moving to 1.5" butcher block and the cork pads made a huge difference. looks better too.

I have some 3 x 3 pads so next experiment is to get the pads out from the footers and underneath the component itself. In most cases the combo of a 2 x 2 and 3 x3 will be taller than the existing footers. Have to be a little careful on some components not to block cooling holes.
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  #27  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Jordan View Post
Stephen-

OK, I continue to re-digest your report.

I use a rack I designed and built using maple butcher block shelves. For a while, i used a "prototype" made from an old TV cabinet. the shelves were formica covered particle board say 3/4" thick. moving to 1.5" butcher block and the cork pads made a huge difference. looks better too.

I have some 3 x 3 pads so next experiment is to get the pads out from the footers and underneath the component itself. In most cases the combo of a 2 x 2 and 3 x3 will be taller than the existing footers. Have to be a little careful on some components not to block cooling holes.
Sounds good, John. Do your experiments and report back.
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  #28  
Old 01-25-2020, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
Hi John,
Um, kinda-sorta. What the data in this model says that, when the Gumby DAC is on the maple board, the Tenderfeet don't bring any statistically significant improvement over using the stock Gumby feet.

But, there's a complication: this is known as a "confounding factor" in DOE-land: the maple board was resting on...the cork & rubber anti-vibration pads! So, they very likely had an impact on the effect of using the maple board, regardless of the footers under Gumby.

So, I have to figure out another design to "de-convolve" (i.e., separate out) the impact of the anti-vibration pads as a factor, separately. One way to do this modify the design so that the footers are evaluated at three levels (actually 3 discrete factors), instead of just two.

The other way I could do it is to use another type of footer under the maple board, e.g. hardwood blocks, the MIGs, or...use no footers under the maple board at all, etc. Then I could examine 3 factors instead of two and run the DOE at 2 levels instead of 3 levels for one factor, footers.

Still thinking about what the best design would be....

At, at the end of the day, I still have to listen to it. A key principle is you have to do a real-world test of your model. It could be that while the maple board may not reduce the transmitted power from vibration to the DAC, but it may bring other attributes or qualities that just make the system sound better. I can tell you my Denali 6000/S V2 sounds better on a nice piece of rock maple than it does just on the shelf or...on the living room carpet (where it sounds not very good at all...).

One way to think about this is: why are Stradivarius/Guanerius violins made in Cremona in the 18th Century prized for their sound over modern violins? Its because the wood the the violin's body was made out of in the 18th Century was made from wood from old-growth forests. Those forests don't really exist anymore, and the wood modern violins are made from is "new growth" forest and has a diifferent density and other qualities from "old-growth" wood.


Couldn’t you just flip the maple board assuming there is enough size?
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  #29  
Old 01-25-2020, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by For The Love of Music View Post
Couldn’t you just flip the maple board assuming there is enough size?
Sorry, Ed, not sure what you mean by flipping the maple board? Do you mean orienting it from "landscape" orientation to "portrait" orientation?
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  #30  
Old 01-25-2020, 02:16 PM
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So...I spent yesterday afternoon doing some more audio rack shelf/maple board and footer studies using VibSensor and JMP14.

Here's a plot comparing just the vibration in the top shelf of my Sanus Euro II audio rack without my DAC on it, just to get a baseline.

The blue trace is just the audio rack top shelf by itself; the iphone is resting along the right edge of the shelf so that its mass does not damp (not dampen, which is to make something moist) the imparted Power, RMS. The Green trace is the maple board sitting on 3/4" wooden blocks with the phone resting on its edge, and the red trace are the Diversitech closed cell foam & rubber anti-vibration pads (DVT AVP) under the maple board. Note that the imparted force using the DVT AVPs is much higher, and is shifted up about 10-15 Hz into the 40-50 Hz range.



Conclusion:
My guess is that the AVPs, being made of rubber and foam, are acting like a undamped spring on a car; amplifying the imparted vibration. As there's no "damper" (i.e., like a car or bike shock absorber), the AVP actually makes the amplitude and the frequency of the imparted power (vibration) worse.

This result, interestingly, is consistent with my DOE from the other day, where I found that less power was induced into my DAC with it resting on the audio rack shelf on Herbie's Tenderfeet (TF) than on the maple board with TF and AVPs.
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 01-25-2020 at 02:23 PM.
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