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  #11  
Old 08-21-2020, 05:04 PM
silversurfer6 silversurfer6 is offline
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The SA12SE is less than half price so it should not compare. It is basically the same as the KI Ruby edition minus a few minor things.

I would go for the SA10.

There is another premium Marantz player being announced in 2 weeks but it is similar to the SA12SE in price and will be the first component (along with the matching amp) to showcase the new Marantz component design.

I would get the SA10 if I were you.
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  #12  
Old 08-21-2020, 05:20 PM
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Crumhorn Crumhorn is offline
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Thanks!

I ordered the SA-10 about a month ago. They estimated an end-of-August ship date. I can't wait to hear my stereo again!
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  #13  
Old 08-21-2020, 05:26 PM
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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The transport on my Esoteric X-05 literally broke into pieces as I was playing a disc several months ago. The single authorized Esoteric repair service in the entire US estimated (by phone) that the cost to repair it would $1,800 or more, plus $170 for a "factory authorized" shipping box, plus cross-country shipping. Several knowledgable folks advised me that DACs had improved so much in the last 12 years that I would be much better off putting that money towards a new machine.

Despite feeling a bit put out by Esoteric, my first thought was to see what their current replacement model would be. 3 different major Esoteric dealers told me that Esoteric had apparently abandoned the US market - multiple big-dollar orders by them had gone unfilled, inquiries to Esoteric by them had gone unanswered, & they had been forced to give their customers refunds. (They also said that no-show replacement parts were delaying repairs.) They all advised me to avoid Esoteric like the plague.

My thoughts then turned to Luxman, but they had just retired their entire SACD player line, & the only new model that will be available this year is the d-10x, which is way out of my price range.

Because I need SACD (I have over 1000 discs), my player choices are limited to begin with. I did a lot of research, & called a lot of dealers, and the SA-10 seems like the best player available within my price range, unless I am willing to wait a year for the new, less expensive, Luxman models, which I'm not. The new Esoteric players have gotten some good reviews, but that does me no good if I can't (reliably) buy one. It's been a very frustrating process.

Although the AC inlet on the Marantz lacks a ground pin, it takes a standard IEC-type plug, allowing the use of aftermarket PCs like my Shunyata Alpha NR - it simply makes no connection to the ground. I currently have a call in to Shunyata to ask if this is a problem. (Richard is on vacation until next Wed.)

As my turntable is also out of commission at the moment, I've been without my system for over 2 months, & I'm going through withdrawal...
Sorry to hear that your turntable is also out of commission.

How did your Esoteric transport break into pieces? How old was your Esoteric? If I was given a choice between the Esoteric, DCS, MSB & EMM Labs I would not go with the Esoteric, it would be my least favorite sound profile wise.

If you can find a used Modwright Oppo 205/105 (fully modded) somewhere I highly recommend that. I have heard the Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded version) in my own system few years ago and was highly impressed. The newer Modwright Oppo 205 (fully modded) would sound even better than the Modwright Oppo 105. The Modwright Oppo 105 is probably one of the most analog sounding digital device I've ever heard for under $15k. Even many much more expensive DACs or CD/SACD players costing much more than the total costs of these fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 lack analog or organic qualities in musical reproductions and fail to capture the musical emotions the way this Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded) did. they just excel on details and resolutions. The fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 that I listened to few yrs ago was spectacular in all areas. Music simply blooms to the fullest and all musical elements possess full body. It's like listening to a live performance. The Modwright Oppo 205 would sound even better but I had never heard one.
Dan Wright of Modwright claimed that the Modwright Oppo 205 is the best modifications he's ever done. it's his masterpiece. Both Oppo 105/205 disc drive transports are solid and very reliable and last forever.
Either fully modded Modwright Oppo 105/205 (both used) can be had for way less than $7k original new retail price of the SA-10 and would mosl likely trump the SA-10 as I've heard both the SA-10 and the Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded version). The SA-10 is great but the fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 takes musicality to another level altogether IMO and was cheaper than the brand new retail price of the SA-10.

In regards to DACs getting better over time. It's true but the overall sound quality of disc players or standalone DACs aren't soly determined by the DAC chips & digital filyering. there are many other determining factors that contribute to overall soubd quality of your digital front end components. The power supllies and their implementation and regulations of them, voltage regulations, analog output buffer and most importantly the analog audio output stage (analog audio circuitry). All these don't really improve much over time.

I wished that Marantz put in the three-way prong AC inlet on their SA-10 and its other Reference series products.
It makes it hard for us to get a good quality upgraded aftermarket power cables to use with the SA-10 and other Marantz Reference series gears in order to optimize performance.

Last edited by Dilettante; 08-21-2020 at 05:48 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-21-2020, 05:46 PM
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bart bart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Sorry to hear that your turntable is also out of commission.

How did your Esoteric transport break into pieces? How old was your Esoteric? If I was given a choice between the Esoteric, DCS, MSB & EMM Labs I would not go with the Esoteric, it would be my least favorite sound profile wise.

If you can find a used Modwright Oppo 205/105 (fully modded) somewhere I highly recommend that. I have heard the Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded version) in my own system few years ago and was highly impressed. The newer Modwright Oppo 205 (fully modded) would sound even better than the Modwright Oppo 105. The Modwright Oppo 105 is probably one of the most analog sounding digital device I've ever heard for under $15k. Even many much more expensive DACs or CD/SACD players costing much more than the total costs of these fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 lack analog or organic qualities in musical reproductions and fail to capture the musical emotions the way this Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded) did. they just excel on details and resolutions. The fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 that I listened to few yrs ago was spectacular in all areas. Music simply blooms to the fullest and all musical elements possess full body. It's like listening to a live performance. The Modwright Oppo 205 would sound even better but I had never heard one.
Dan Wright of Modwright claimed that the Modwright Oppo 205 is the best modifications he's ever done. it's his masterpiece. Both Oppo 105/205 disc drive transports are solid and very reliable and last forever.

In regards to DACs getting better over time. It's true but the overall sound quality of disc players or standalone DACs aren't soly determined by the DAC chips & digital filyering. there are many other determining factors that contribute to overall soubd quality of your digital front end components. The power supllies and their implementation and regulations of them, voltage regulations, analog output buffer and most importantly the analog audio output stage (analog audio circuitry). All these don't really improve much over time.

I wished that Marantz put in the three-way prong AC inlet on their SA-10 and its other Reference series products.
It makes it hard for us to get a good quality upgraded aftermarket power cables to use with the SA-10 and other Marantz Reference series gears in order to optimize performance.




In Europe, the SA-10 can be used with the usual power cords, maybe the situation in the US is different.
The SA-10 got very very good reviews in almost every audio magazine over here.
I listened to it and I find it in the same league as its 7-10K competitors.
You can buy it used for under 5K which makes it a top deal if you want an SACD player imho.
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  #15  
Old 08-21-2020, 06:37 PM
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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I think the European version of SA-10 is also missing ground pin on its AC inlet which makes it hard to use with an upgraded aftermarket AC power cable since all good quality aftermarket power cables have three-way female connectors to use with equipments with three-way AC inlets. None of Marantz Reference series products are equipped with three-way AC inlet, which I found pretty frustrating.

Yes the SA-10 is a great sounding unit no doubt but I found a fully modded Modwright Oppo 105/205 better more analog sounding to me and is cheaper than the new retail price of the SA-10 at $7k.
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  #16  
Old 08-21-2020, 10:32 PM
rnrmf1971 rnrmf1971 is online now
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Crumhorn,
You can use whatever power cable you want with the Marantz. I use 3 prong cables and they can certainly bring improvements. I'm using an Audioquest Dragon at the moment, and also have been using the Acrolink/Esoteric 7N-PC9700 and both bring significant gains in sound quality to my ears. Use the stock power cable to establish a baseline for comparisons.

With regard to suggestions about a Modwright Oppo, my experience was 180 degrees different. I'll never blow money on a modded unit from anyone, again. The stock 105 was way better than the Modwright version, for me. My lesson was just buy a better player to start.

I'm confident the Marantz would destroy both players given that I like the Marantz better than the Oppo UDP-205 which I greatly preferred over the BDP-105.

I listened to the stock settings for awhile, but eventually changed the settings to this:
headphone amp: OFF
Filter: 2
Dither: 1
Noise Shaper: 4th-1

I found this combo to give the best balance of focus, clarity, and musicality in my system.
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south: Mark Levinson No. 52 pre, Bricasti M28 amps, Lumin A1, Oppo BDP-205, Pioneer CT-43, Sony SS-AR1 Speakers, Audioquest Dragon PCs, Audioquest speaker cables, Audioquest interconnects, HB Power Design Powerslave Star Galaxy power distributor

north: Vitus SIA-030, Luxman D10X, Sony TC-KA3ES, Harbeth 40.2, Siltech cables

Last edited by rnrmf1971; 08-21-2020 at 10:38 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2020, 12:14 AM
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Crumhorn Crumhorn is offline
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Thanks, Christian!
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  #18  
Old 08-22-2020, 01:29 AM
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Crumhorn Crumhorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Sorry to hear that your turntable is also out of commission.

How did your Esoteric transport break into pieces? How old was your Esoteric? If I was given a choice between the Esoteric, DCS, MSB & EMM Labs I would not go with the Esoteric, it would be my least favorite sound profile wise.

If you can find a used Modwright Oppo 205/105 (fully modded) somewhere I highly recommend that. I have heard the Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded version) in my own system few years ago and was highly impressed. The newer Modwright Oppo 205 (fully modded) would sound even better than the Modwright Oppo 105. The Modwright Oppo 105 is probably one of the most analog sounding digital device I've ever heard for under $15k. Even many much more expensive DACs or CD/SACD players costing much more than the total costs of these fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 lack analog or organic qualities in musical reproductions and fail to capture the musical emotions the way this Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded) did. they just excel on details and resolutions. The fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 that I listened to few yrs ago was spectacular in all areas. Music simply blooms to the fullest and all musical elements possess full body. It's like listening to a live performance. The Modwright Oppo 205 would sound even better but I had never heard one.
Dan Wright of Modwright claimed that the Modwright Oppo 205 is the best modifications he's ever done. it's his masterpiece. Both Oppo 105/205 disc drive transports are solid and very reliable and last forever.
Either fully modded Modwright Oppo 105/205 (both used) can be had for way less than $7k original new retail price of the SA-10 and would mosl likely trump the SA-10 as I've heard both the SA-10 and the Modwright Oppo 105 (fully modded version). The SA-10 is great but the fully modded Modwright Oppo 105 takes musicality to another level altogether IMO and was cheaper than the brand new retail price of the SA-10.

In regards to DACs getting better over time. It's true but the overall sound quality of disc players or standalone DACs aren't soly determined by the DAC chips & digital filyering. there are many other determining factors that contribute to overall soubd quality of your digital front end components. The power supllies and their implementation and regulations of them, voltage regulations, analog output buffer and most importantly the analog audio output stage (analog audio circuitry). All these don't really improve much over time.

I wished that Marantz put in the three-way prong AC inlet on their SA-10 and its other Reference series products.
It makes it hard for us to get a good quality upgraded aftermarket power cables to use with the SA-10 and other Marantz Reference series gears in order to optimize performance.

To answer your questions in order: The "disc clamp" that clamps the label side of the CD in the transport snapped completely off as the disc was spinning, jamming the mechanism & causing ancillary damage to the gears & other mechanical components of the transport. It wasn't pretty! There was nothing unusual about the CD I was playing, & I have been scrupulous about ensuring that every disc I play is in immaculate condition, so I am at a loss as to why this happened. I purchased the player in 2010, but it was a 2008 model.

If the DCS, MSB & EMM Labs players had been within my budget, I definitely would have considered them before the Marantz, & possibly the Esoteric. These days there are slim pickings for SACD players between $3,500 & $!3,000...

As for the Modwright mods, I have reached the (gasp!) age where reliability, low-maintenance, set-it-&-forget-it has to come first, over absolute sound quality. That is why I transitioned from an all-tube system to what I have now. All too often, I would forget to turn my tubed gear off after a listening session, sometimes returning from a week-long trip only to find it was still on, burning through the tubes & electricity. So a tubed 2nd-hand mod of an out-of-print model is the wrong road for me, no matter how good it sounds...

Yes, I completely agree that the DAC alone is no indicator of the sound quality of a player. And some components of all kinds possess a "magic" that allows them to transcend their age. But for most high-end companies, when comparing apples-to-apples, the DACs/players being made now, with newer, more powerful & sophisticated chip sets, are better than their predecessors.

As to the lack of a grounding pin in the Marantz units, I, too, wonder why. Neither their literature, or reviews, make any mention of it. Are they trying to avoid ground loops? Did the units sound worse when grounded? I can't imagine that omitting it saves them much money. But as to using aftermarket cords, the IEC socket is the standard 15-amp shape & size - it's just missing the ground pin. Any aftermarket cord should work just fine in terms of fitting the socket & supplying juice to the player. The only question is whether the sonic "sauce" of any particular cord would be compromised by the lack of the ground connection at the player end. I just started a new thread in the Shunyata forum to ask that question, as that is the PC I am currently using. I'll ask Shunyata the question by phone, if they don't answer it in the thread. Since the Denali power conditioner has a "Chasis Grounding System" built-in, I'll eventually run a wire to it from the Marantz & see what I think...


SOTA Cosmos TT (vacuum, Electronic Flywheel), SME V, Koetsu Rosewood Signature
Marantz SA-10 SACD player, Alesis ML-9600 mastering CD burner, Nakamichi 700 ZXE Cassette Deck
Pass Labs XP-15 phono stage
Pass Labs XP-30 (SS) & Hovland HP-100 (tube) preamps
Edge G8+ laser-biased monoblocks & Classé M-700 monoblocks
Rockport Atria & Infinity IRS Beta Speakers
Audience AU24 SX Phono cable, MIT Shotgun ICs, Shunyata Alpha SCs
Revelation Audio Labs 'Passage' CryoSilver Reference DualConduit DB-25 umbilical cables for Pass XP-30
Shunyata Denali 6000T power conditioner (on BBA platform), Shunyata Alpha NR, Delta NR, & Venom HC PCs. Also PS8 & 2 Venom Defenders.
Audio Magic Ultimate SHD Bees Wax Fuse, Synergistic Research Blue & Black fuses, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses
Klaudio LP200 ultrasonic RCM

Last edited by Crumhorn; 08-22-2020 at 01:35 AM.
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  #19  
Old 08-22-2020, 01:50 AM
silversurfer6 silversurfer6 is offline
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Default SA-12SE announced in UK - How does it compare to SA-10?

We have sold a couple of SA-10 a few years ago and we never heard back. It is bulit like a tank. We represent Sound United in a coubtty far far away and I am extremely happy with their aupport.

Additionally I see Classe improving a lot. Can you imagine a classe av processor with The latest chips that SU has access to? And support by SU engineers.

If they buy B&W also they are becoming a strong force in all market segments.

Last edited by silversurfer6; 08-22-2020 at 01:53 AM.
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  #20  
Old 08-22-2020, 02:54 AM
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrmf1971 View Post
Crumhorn,
You can use whatever power cable you want with the Marantz. I use 3 prong cables and they can certainly bring improvements. I'm using an Audioquest Dragon at the moment, and also have been using the Acrolink/Esoteric 7N-PC9700 and both bring significant gains in sound quality to my ears. Use the stock power cable to establish a baseline for comparisons.

With regard to suggestions about a Modwright Oppo, my experience was 180 degrees different. I'll never blow money on a modded unit from anyone, again. The stock 105 was way better than the Modwright version, for me. My lesson was just buy a better player to start.

I'm confident the Marantz would destroy both players given that I like the Marantz better than the Oppo UDP-205 which I greatly preferred over the BDP-105.

I listened to the stock settings for awhile, but eventually changed the settings to this:
headphone amp: OFF
Filter: 2
Dither: 1
Noise Shaper: 4th-1

I found this combo to give the best balance of focus, clarity, and musicality in my system.
How would you fit a three prong female connector power cable into a two way AC inlet on the Marantz? It wouldn't fit, would it?

I myself am using all Shunyta Sigma power cables for all my components but all my components have three way AC inlets, unlike the Marantz.
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