AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Audio & Video > Pre-Amps & Amplifiers

Pre-Amps & Amplifiers All Brands Welcome

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-25-2017, 03:14 AM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by j3brow View Post
I don't think beak in is a significant issue for the 1100. Guess it's what happens when paired up against world class preamps. I heard the Ref6 in a all AR Ref system .... it was sublime. The 326s isn't no slouch either. I'm just surprised the McIntosh pre didn't fair better paired with McIntosh amps. Maybe if I could hear a Ref 6 in my system I would understand better. But the C1100/601 combo leaves we wanting for nothing at the moment.

Doc,

The question is not if you will discover a better sounding preamp. If you are happy with the 1100, don't move. Seriously.

JUST DO NOT LET THE REF6 GET INTO YOUR HOUSE for a tryout. [emoji23]
I have been very happy for years with Black and White TV. Until I discovered colors !
__________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats
Albert Schweitzer
  #12  
Old 07-25-2017, 03:35 AM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueoak View Post
How can you make such an assessment on C1100 without hearing it?

As I said I lost completely my interest in McIntosh tube preamps. They are just too far from the other manufacturers.
The C1100 may be wonderful though. They might have learned finally how to make a stunning tube preamp.
It just took too much time to keep my curiosity lighted.
__________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats
Albert Schweitzer
  #13  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:08 AM
gadawg gadawg is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Prosper TX
Posts: 847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome W View Post
George,

I can connect easily to your impressions. Although I did not hear the new C1100 preamp, I actually have zero interest in it.
The only McIntosh preamp that I really loved and that I could own again was the C1000P.
I found the C1000T to be good. But pretty far from the performance of the P.
With experience to other designs from other brands, tube or SS preamps, I came to the conclusion that, except for the C1000P, McIntosh just does not play in the same park as other high end preamps. Even when used with Mc power amps which is the pinnacle of "something is wrong".
I heard the Sasha 1 years ago during a few hours.
The power amps were the 601's monoblocks. And they were first paired with the C2300 preamp. With stock tubes. The sound was not appealing to me. It was pretty flat and often aggressive. Something I rarely heard in a Mc system !
Then the dealer said "would you mind if we try a little ARC preamp ? ".
"Of course not ! ".
We then heard the 601's with a "small" LS17MKII preamp.
To say that the system just came to life is an understatement. Everything was better.
We tried other power amps, including the ARC REF250's, and the Accuphase A60. I preferred the 601's to the huge 250's, by a wide margin.
But the A60 killed them all.
That day, I really understood the sentence widely spread in some audiophile groups "McIntosh is for power amps. Audio Research is for preamps".
Of course I know that many at AA will disagree. And I respect their opinion.
But including at my own place, I heard so many Mc preamps failing to play in the same park than similarly priced competitors or even cheaper ones, that I completely lost my interest in McIntosh preamps.
Exception once again for the C1000P.
And I still have dreams about McIntosh power amps !
Jerome,

I've never heard the 250's but the 601's have bested some other very expensive amps in my system. Might have to give an Accuphase a listen at some point. Heard the DartZeel Mono's and I really liked those ... Didn't feel like a 2nd mortgage to pay for amps though!
  #14  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:20 AM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadawg View Post
Jerome,



I've never heard the 250's but the 601's have bested some other very expensive amps in my system. Might have to give an Accuphase a listen at some point. Heard the DartZeel Mono's and I really liked those ... Didn't feel like a 2nd mortgage to pay for amps though!

Georges,
The 601's are fabulous amps. The A60 was probably just a better match for the Sasha.
But I would not say that it is better than the 601's.
__________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats
Albert Schweitzer
  #15  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:19 AM
vintage_tube's Avatar
vintage_tube vintage_tube is online now
Just Pure Lucky



 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: East Coast
Posts: 8,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome W View Post
As I said I lost completely my interest in McIntosh tube preamps. They are just too far from the other manufacturers.
The C1100 may be wonderful though. They might have learned finally how to make a stunning tube preamp. It just took too much time to keep my curiosity lighted.
Historically speaking and you probably recall the shootout I did between the C500T and my friends ARC REF 3 a number of years back. In the end, the C500T took honors.

Fast forward a few years after that, I sold the C500T combo and purchased a highly raved VAC Signature MK IIa. After a month or two & the dust was settling on the unit (newness wore off is what I'm alluding to), everyday I played digital or analog, in the back of my small cranium, I knew something wasn't right. It sounded good; but, not as great as with the C500T. I lived with that thought for 4 years of more. It got to the point, with my love for good music and micro details, dynamics, It became more of a "okay, I'll turn the rig on, because I've got this beast of a system in my living room, may as well use it." I wasn't happy and content as one would expect.

I began looking around for a used C500T or a 1000T series. Then as if the late Frank McIntosh heard my internal screams, the C1100 came to market.

Enough said. The VAC went out, the C1100 came in. I'm back in audio heaven -- everything I missed with the C500T was back but better with the updated & current C1100 combo.

I can't explain it other than the fact when the VAC was connected, the balanced symmetry I was expecting and in which it received very high audio press praise was AWOL.

So, for me and my experience, I'll never try another brand preamp with McIntosh MC2301's. It's just too expensive & I don't want to relive the feelings I had when the VAC was in the system. Too painful.

Best Sir,

Bob
__________________
Amps:VAC 450iQ Monos in Silver Flake on HRS M3X2-1921's, HRS G7 Footers/G-Links & Sound Anchor Conecoasters.
Preamp:VAC Master Preamplifier (Silver Flake)
Digital Source: dCS Rossini CD/SACD Transport, Vivaldi APEX DAC, Upsampler Plus & matching Clock (Silver)
Analogue Preamp:VAC Renaissance SE Phono stage in Silver Flake with XLR Output Option & with Nordost Valhalla XLR's.
Analogue Sources:SME 20/2 w/SME V arm & Nordost Valhalla TA cable, Palo Santos Presentation Cartridge & Akai GX-400D Reel-to-Reel w/relapped heads by JRF Magnetic Sciences. Akai RC-17 cabled remote (original owner since 1974).
Vibration Control:TT on HRS M3X2-1921 shelf.
Speakers:Wilson Audio Alexia in Argento Silver/Black grills sitting on Acoustic Diode Kit.
Power Cables:4 Nordost Odin Supreme Reference on amps, preamp & DAC. Ansuz Acoustics C2 on Transport & Clock.
Power Distribution Bar:Shunyata Everest 8000 w/Omega XC Power Cable.
Power Outlets:Furutech GTX-D NCF (R) duplex outlet, GTX Wall Plate & Duplex Cover (x2) on dedicated, same panel phase, 20A breakers.
Speaker Cables:3M Nordost Odin Supreme Reference on Nordost Sort Lifts.
Signal Cables:Nordost Odin XLR's on dCS DAC & Amps.
Digital Cables: Nordost Odin 2's, 110 ohm AES/EBU on dCS Transport to DAC.
Clock Cables:5 each 75 ohm 1.25M Nordost Valhalla BNC/BNC Digital
Ethernet Cable: WireWorld Platinum 1M Starlight® 8 Twinax
Headphones:Vintage Koss Pro IV AA.
RCM: Audio Desk PRO
Tube Test Gear:Mint late '60's/calibrated Heathkit TT-1A, MaxiMatcher Preamp & Space Tech Labs ATT-3.02 tube test sets.

Last edited by vintage_tube; 07-25-2017 at 08:23 AM.
  #16  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:32 AM
JBT JBT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lago Vista Texas Downtown Austin and Frisco Colorado
Posts: 2,017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome W View Post
Doc,

The question is not if you will discover a better sounding preamp. If you are happy with the 1100, don't move. Seriously.

JUST DO NOT LET THE REF6 GET INTO YOUR HOUSE for a tryout. [emoji23]
I have been very happy for years with Black and White TV. Until I discovered colors !
I feel the same way about ARC preamps as you do Mcintosh preamps. And I"m a big fan of ARC power amps and Disc spinners. Currently have two ARC integrated amp systems in my house VSi60 and VSi75 and a third in Condo GSi75. The ARC reference 5 preamp was simply dry. Fatiguing. Perhaps system synergy because I was running it with Mcintosh tube amps. The Cary SLP-05 Preamp is a great match for Mcintosh tube amps. Very musical. Highly recommended. In the not too distant future I'm going to try it with my new 601s.
  #17  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:15 AM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,240
Default

Bob, JBT,

Clearly all this is a question of taste.
Mc preamps are very forgiving and it is true that they usually sound natural. That is a strength in some systems.
But to my ears there are too many things missing.
__________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats
Albert Schweitzer
  #18  
Old 09-30-2017, 10:37 AM
trponhunter trponhunter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadawg View Post
As I was auditioning speakers last week also had a chance to compare 3 well known preamps and wanted to pass along my observations. The rest of the system was ...

Wilson Sasha 2
McIntosh MC-601
AR Dac9
Berkeley Alpha USB
Windows Laptop with Roon
All Transparent IC and SC

Firstly ... I was there primarily auditioning speakers and brought my preamp so the system would be the same minus the room! So here goes ...

McIntosh C1100 ... the first time I heard the setup was with the C1100. Right from the start I didn't emotionally connect with this combination which surprised me quite a bit. I had heard something similar with the older C1000 and really liked that combo. The best way to describe what I heard was that it seemed a bit overdone on the top end. Could have been the cable combination as well. Something to note though is that I had been auditioning ML 15a's as well and with the C1100/MC-601 combo it seemed bright and flat. Even my wife described it as flat sounding. Anyway ... that was what prompted me to bring my Levinson in for a listen

No326s ... The brightness that I heard with the C1100 if you could call it that was immediately gone. Bottom end was better defined and the sound stage really exploded. The music now had more body and was a much richer sound without being overly lush. Detail was similar but with more space and a much blacker background. This combo was by far a better combo. Again not sure why but we all agreed.

Ref 6 ... This combo is NOT supposed to work well from what I've read. I talked to an employee from Audio Research at a Sales Event last year and he mentioned that he thought the combo worked fine. That said ... it did more than work fine. It was by far the best I've ever heard the MC-601 sound. The sound stage height exploded and while I didn't realize that there had been a lack of presence before ... now with the Ref 6 in the chain it was a real eye opener. Much more 3 dimensional than before and just sounded more real to life. Less like a recreation of the event and more like the event. It was startling how much more open the Reference 6 was than the Levinson. There were areas that sounded very similar between the two ... detail retrieval, harmonic texture, and surprisingly ... the bottom end. Yes ... the bottom end sounded just fine with the Ref 6 and the MC-601. Not fuzzy at all just good extended tight bass.

So ... I guess I know what my next step is once I recover from the Sasha purchase!

Again ... all of this is only valid with the setup I listened to in the room and with the cables we were using. So ... long and short of the story is just because you have and love the MC-601's don't rule out the Ref 6 if you are shopping for a preamp. You might just be surprised.

George
It would be really interesting to subject these 3 pre amps to a by pass test to see what the results are versus subjectively just listening to them.
  #19  
Old 02-10-2020, 06:32 PM
gbuitend gbuitend is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1
Default

Hi George,

Thanks for the interesting post.
You listened to the ML 326S and I was wondering which Amplifier you used in the combination with this pre-amp.

And, am I correct to say that the MC601 is an integrated Amplifier, so no separate pre-amp was used?
You are quite explicit in the way how you described the MC601 as the next level of the ML 326S and I wonder if it was just a source and this MC601?

Thanks!
Guido
  #20  
Old 02-10-2020, 10:20 PM
Masterlu's Avatar
Masterlu Masterlu is online now
AA Founder, Legend AV Owner



 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South FL & Cape Cod MA
Posts: 78,485
Default

gbuitend... Welcome to AA!
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:57 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video