Tube preamp for Pass XA 60.8?

[Jdsmoke]

Originally Posted by daveneumann

I enjoy my XP 22 with XA60.8 amps. It is a very dynamic, transparent, detailed, and quiet combination. However, I miss some of the liquidity, 3D, bloom, and beauty that tubes can provide.

Requirements for a tube preamp: balanced design, remote, dead quiet, liquidity of tubes without being overly warm or sweet. My budget is in the $10,00 - $15,000 range new or used. Since I am using the XP27, all I need is a line stage.

I would appreciate hearing about your specific experience with a tube preamp and XA amps, especially the XA60.8. I talked with Kent at Pass Labs and he said the XA60.8 plays well with just about any tube preamp, but he did not make any specific recommendations other than to name a few company names.

Options I am considering include ARC Ref 6SE, VAC Signature SE (used), Aric Motherload II, Ayon Auris II, Backart Labs Rhythm, Zesto Leto II.

Thanks in advance for any experience and advice you can share.

Dave

I have the ARC Ref 6SE and love it. Great combination with classic tube sound and the dynamics of Pass.

[daveneumann]

Originally Posted by Jdsmoke

I have the ARC Ref 6SE and love it. Great combination with classic tube sound and the dynamics of Pass.

Thanks, the Ref 6SE is on my shortlist. I wish there was a dealer near me so that I could audition it in my system.

[mulveling]

I've gone back & forth between Ref 6 and VAC Master (and Ren V) in my own system. The Ref 6 is a wonderful sounding pre that will give you a little bit of sweetness and tube bloom. Will it be enough tube sweetness? Depends on the rest of your system. The Master is a wonderful pre that will give you more tube sweetness and bloom - a really big helping of it. Will it be too much? Depends on your system. The Ren V sounds very similar to the Master but the latter is clearly more articulate and dynamic. I assume the Signature SE is in between the two. The Master pairs brilliantly well with a SS amp (Phison) or a clean SS-like tube amps (Rogue Apollo Dark). But with the matching VAC 200iQ monos it can actually be "too much of good thing" for tube sweetness - though many will love this pairing, it can be just a bit too much for me, in my system (which also has a VAC phono, Koetsu/Benz cartridges, and Tannoy speakers contributing towards this cumulative "sweetness"). Meanwhile the Ref 6 actually paired beautifully with 200iQ's here.

The VAC onboard phono stages are absolutely wonderful, and a great value. Of course their standalone stages are even better if you can stretch it. And yes, their stages' sound is also on the romantic side of things.

[jpspock]

I used a ref5se during many years with my xa100.5 and actual xa160.5. Very great combo, but I changed for a passive preamp. Will never Côme back.

[daveneumann]

[QUOTE=mulveling;1054129]I've gone back & forth between Ref 6 and VAC Master (and Ren V) in my own system. The Ref 6 is a wonderful sounding pre that will give you a little bit of sweetness and tube bloom. Will it be enough tube sweetness? Depends on the rest of your system. The Master is a wonderful pre that will give you more tube sweetness and bloom - a really big helping of it. Will it be too much? Depends on your system. The Ren V sounds very similar to the Master but the latter is clearly more articulate and dynamic. I assume the Signature SE is in between the two. The Master pairs brilliantly well with a SS amp (Phison) or a clean SS-like tube amps (Rogue Apollo Dark). But with the matching VAC 200iQ monos it can actually be "too much of good thing" for tube sweetness - though many will love this pairing, it can be just a bit too much for me, in my system (which also has a VAC phono, Koetsu/Benz cartridges, and Tannoy speakers contributing towards this cumulative "sweetness"). Meanwhile the Ref 6 actually paired beautifully with 200iQ's here.

Thanks for the comparisons and descriptions. This is very helpful. Was your Ref 6 the SE version?

The VAC Master is out of my price range by far, but the Signature SE fits. The rest of my system is on the warm/neutral side, especially the Pass amps and Strads. The Pass XP22 and XP27 seem neutral and the same with my cartridge and TT.

[daveneumann]

Originally Posted by jpspock

I used a ref5se during many years with my xa100.5 and actual xa160.5. Very great combo, but I changed for a passive preamp. Will never Côme back.

Another reco for ARC. Interesting comment about using a passive preamp. That's probably out of the question for me because I need to drive 6 meter balanced interconnects.

[mulveling]

Originally Posted by daveneumann

Thanks for the comparisons and descriptions. This is very helpful. Was your Ref 6 the SE version?

The VAC Master is out of my price range by far, but the Signature SE fits. The rest of my system is on the warm/neutral side, especially the Pass amps and Strads. The Pass XP22 and XP27 seem neutral and the same with my cartridge and TT.

I had the plain 'ole Reference 6, non SE. In fact I just ordered a certified pre-owned Ref 6 again because I've really missed it. I'll probably end up swapping between Phison A2.120SE & VAC Master vs. ARC Ref 6 & VAC 200iQ's as my favorite configs. I can stress later about when to have it upgraded to SE status.

[daveneumann]

Originally Posted by mulveling

I had the plain 'ole Reference 6, non SE. In fact I just ordered a certified pre-owned Ref 6 again because I've really missed it. I'll probably end up swapping between Phison A2.120SE & VAC Master vs. ARC Ref 6 & VAC 200iQ's as my favorite configs. I can stress later about when to have it upgraded to SE status.

Thanks! The REf 6 seems to be a little more available on the used market than a 6SE. Good luck and have fun!

[jpspock]

Originally Posted by daveneumann

Another reco for ARC. Interesting comment about using a passive preamp. That's probably out of the question for me because I need to drive 6 meter balanced interconnects.

I do not see where the problem is…

[LaMannaFromLaMuncha]

We own the Pass X600.8 monos and Wilson Alexis 2s and went through a similar process of pinning down a preamp. We started with a McIntosh C2700, a tube preamp. For $7K it was fine, but it left much on the table.

We experimented with the Pass XP-32 solid state and VTL TL6.5 Series II Signature HYBRID SS/tube preamps. We had hoped the XP-32, being a Pass Labs product, would be perfect since it was made by the same manufacturer as our X600.8 monos. You know, “same manufacturer synergy”.

But we found that a SS pre/linestage with SS amps lost too much musicality. The VTL was equally superb, and came closer to the “in the room” presence we were looking for, but felt it was “too safe”—it sounded competent but not as involving as we wanted.

It should be noted that the XP-32 was brand new and NOT burned in at all, but the VTL was fully broken in.

We even tried skipping a preamp and plugging our Linn Selekt DSM with Katalyst DAC directly into the amps. While this increased detail and resolution greatly and had an “in your face” quality that provided the raw energy that made 60s and 70s rock tracks come alive as we had never heard before, it completely lacked the musicality and especially COHESIVENESS of the VTL. My wife, who at the time was an Audiophile Agnostic, told me after 5 minutes to pull the interconnects between the streamer and amps or she will burn the house down.

Okay, scratch the direct method.

It was when we inserted an Audio Research Ref 6SE into the line up that the stars aligned. It was the moment my world and my madness made sense to my wife. The second song played was Eva Cassidy’s cover of Christie McVie’s “Songbird”. Fifteen seconds into the track tears began pouring from my wife’s eyes. And the tears streamed for a full 20 seconds as she sat silent—SILENT—overcome with the experience. Count out 20 seconds and imagine tears flowing. It’s a LONG time.

I knew we found our preamp. I also knew she would never be the same in regards to my crazy #$&+$#$ hobby. She was IN. And she became the main driver of our subsequent upgrades.

It has been mentioned here that the new ARC preamps use tubes that should not be rolled. For the most part that is correct. But another way to view this is that non-standard tubes ar snot an improvement for the new ARCs. I dunno. Can’t argue with that.

But I also can not argue with the experience of witnessing my wife literally transformed before my eyes from someone who resented my expensive “preoccupation” into the force behind our audiophile journey.

Just my 2 cents. Okay, maybe it was more like $1.50.