Thoughts on Krell 402e vs 400e?

[Mikeoz]

Originally Posted by SteveK

Correct me if I am wrong. I always thought tube gears were warm, sweet, "rolled off", smooth, liquid, etc. Harsh is not in tube vocabulary...

However, I agree with you. On many recordings, I find ref5se harsh on upper mid to highs. I thought I was going nuts. I had Manley Neo500 which was silky smooth. I thought C2300 and C2500 had very smooth midrange, but lacked detail and rolled off the highs - but NEVER harsh.

So, can it be that ARC ref5SE can be harsh on certain recordings? Maybe it's a blasphemy to even criticize ARC, but that has been my experience also. I just attributed that to my DAC and bad recordings.

In fact, I am on my 3rd DAC after getting ref5SE, due to this harshness. I thought DACs were the problems. I am still refusing to believe ref5 is the culprit...

Why don't you post this question in the ARC section ? It would go against every review I have read.

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by Mikeoz

Why don't you post this question in the ARC section ? It would go against every review I have read.

What pre do you have running with your 302e? I want to hear any experiences with different preamps on Krell amps. If I get Phantom with 400e, that will likely be my pre/amp combo for "many" years. (At least that is what I am told by my wife) I want to look at all the options. Thanks.

[Lunchy]

[Mikeoz]

Originally Posted by SteveK

What pre do you have running with your 302e? I want to hear any experiences with different preamps on Krell amps. If I get Phantom with 400e, that will likely be my pre/amp combo for "many" years. (At least that is what I am told by my wife) I want to look at all the options. Thanks.

Hi I'm using an ARC LS26 at the moment. In my experience harsh high frequencies are often caused by room acoustics. I assume you didn't experience this with your previous set up ?

[SteveK]

Previoulsy, I really have not noticed harshness except on few songs. I started hearing it much more when I auditioned Plinius SA-103. I felt Plinius accentuated upper mid to highs, and somehow "brought out" harshness that I have not noticed before. However, this was still just on small portion of all my music collection. Overall, Plinius sounded dreamy and sweet.

Now, maybe because I am more aware, I notice similar harshness on same songs with ref5se > 302e. Maybe all in my head...

[Mikeoz]

Ref 5 > 302e is what I'm planning to do. On paper this should be a good match. What pre amp are other 302e owners using ?

I don't think a move up to a 402 is the answer here. Can't see how a tube pre amp can be the cause either. Keep us posted if you try the Krell pre ...

[Apexorca]

[QUOTE=SteveK;540949]Correct me if I am wrong. I always thought tube gears were warm, sweet, "rolled off", smooth, liquid, etc. Harsh is not in tube vocabulary...

QUOTE]

Agree! But when I tested Krell was smother, warmer. I got surprised too.
Tube has more ditorsion than transistors but a kind that is often smother för the ear.

[stock78]

Originally Posted by SteveK

Previoulsy, I really have not noticed harshness except on few songs. I started hearing it much more when I auditioned Plinius SA-103. I felt Plinius accentuated upper mid to highs, and somehow "brought out" harshness that I have not noticed before. However, this was still just on small portion of all my music collection. Overall, Plinius sounded dreamy and sweet.

Now, maybe because I am more aware, I notice similar harshness on same songs with ref5se > 302e. Maybe all in my head...

Trying to hear that/some harshness with Krell 400E/ARC Ref5SE and I failed to find it. (Orff, Schoenberg, Schostakovich, Gloria Estefan, Phil Collins, Marillion, lot of Trance, Monteverdi, Thom Rotello, Da Bergamo etc.)

Clean and clear certainly, also truth to the source is evident and the combination gives in my vieuw a very neutral sound. So eg. a Fender Stratocaster should sound like that and not like some kind of a flute. (heard this very smoothed-over sound with an expensive setup of around 150K, not my cup of tea).

My previous Krell KSA 150/KRC 2 set had on certain recordings a mechanical shine and some harshness, which is now gone.
Expect to get an even more balanced sound, as I have just over 310 hrs on Ref 5SE.

Room, room interactions, cables, sources, so a lot of variables!
Good luck.

[SteveK]

I recently auditioned AMR DP777 and I thought it was just perfect. No real harshness through same setup of ref5se>302e or ref5se > Plinius sa103.
So, I think my DAC had lot to do with it.
Regardless, I am 95% set on Phantom, or at least trying it. Expensive trial, it will be, if I don't like it...

[SteveK]

[quote=Apexorca;541619]

Originally Posted by SteveK

Correct me if I am wrong. I always thought tube gears were warm, sweet, "rolled off", smooth, liquid, etc. Harsh is not in tube vocabulary...

QUOTE]

Agree! But when I tested Krell was smother, warmer. I got surprised too.
Tube has more ditorsion than transistors but a kind that is often smother för the ear.

Ok. So, I finally broke down and got Phantom. All I can say is "wow." I have been listening for few hours and it is a huge upgrade from Phantom III, and a noticeable improvement from ARC REF5se. I just opened it and set it up today. So, even without breaking in, NO harshness that I have experienced with different DAC & preamp combo. Incredible detail, liquid midrange, and very musical. I thought soundstage is as wide as ARC ref5SE but it was much more holographic. Can't wait until I get 400e delivered...

Bottom line, somehow, Phantom provides great detail while being smooth and warm. So, Apexorca, I totally agree...