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  #111  
Old 04-20-2012, 04:32 PM
LordoftheRingsEE LordoftheRingsEE is offline
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Thnx a bunch James. ...Scary though for a sec!
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  #112  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:48 AM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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I have been asked a few times why no digital room correction on the Bryston SP-3 Processor.

The problem I see with Digital room correction through ‘EQ’ is that it totally screws up the direct sound vs the reflected sound coming from the speaker.

When you listen to a speaker in a room you are listening to what we call the ‘power response’ and you hear all the direct sound as well as the reflected sound mixed together. So the listening experience is a combination of all the direct and reflected sound waves in a given room with a given speaker. When you alter the ‘direct sound’ at the speaker using ‘EQ’ it totally changes the relationship between the direct and reflected sound and is a disaster when it comes to ‘time smear’. So the speaker designer has spent years attempting to get flat frequency and phase response from his speaker and we come along and force the speaker to do anything but accurate signal transfer. Also if you are going to use ‘EQ’ try and only ‘reduce’ the ‘peaks’ in the room and not ‘amplify’ the troughs. Amplifying the troughs can play havoc with your speaker drivers power handling.

A lot of these newer types of ‘EQ’ products try and average a group of curves taken from many different locations in the room as they are attempting to reduce the negative effects of the single listening chair dilemma. Having a single spot in the room which measures flat but everywhere else in the room measures like crap is not a good result in my opinion. I think you are much better off adjusting the speaker location and using proper room treatments. If all else fails maybe some ‘EQ’ can be used but I would recommend keeping the correction only for the very low bass frequencies and stay away from upper bass, mids and higher frequency ‘EQ’ where room affects are not an issue due to the shorter wavelengths involved. I am hopeful that we will see many more Subwoofers with built in room ‘EQ’ which would be the better solution in my opinion if you are forced to use room correction.

Also ‘Room Correction’ much like ‘Video’ is changing quickly and I wanted the SP-3 to be a long-term purchase for our customers so adding specific dedicated boxes as the current technologies develop to the SP-3 made more sense to me going forward rather than obsoleting some questionable feature in the SP-3.

Hope this helps.

James
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  #113  
Old 04-21-2012, 01:46 PM
LordoftheRingsEE LordoftheRingsEE is offline
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Hi James,

What about DIRAC, TacT, JBL Synthesis Room EQ, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + Pro, Lyngdorf Room Perfect EQ, ARC (Anthem), TRINNOV, and all that Jazz that use FIR or IIR, or a combination of these two type of TAPs (digital filters), that also works in the Time domain (taking into consideration acoustic time arrivals in your room)?

Some pro recording engineers use one of the above systems and they cannot live without.

If you start at the recording sources that are less than perfect to begin with;
how can you try to preserve the 'correct' sound?

Most high-end pre/pros now include one type of Room EQ's implementation or another.
...McIntosh, Classe (in the Bass), Anthem, etc.

* I agree with you on what you just said from your above post, but for most common audio mortals; I believe in some sort of Room EQ than not at all.

Just my

Cheers,
Bob

Last edited by LordoftheRingsEE; 04-21-2012 at 01:57 PM. Reason: small typo
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  #114  
Old 04-21-2012, 02:00 PM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordoftheRingsEE View Post
Hi James,

What about DIRAC, TacT, JBL Synthesis Room EQ, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + Pro, Lyngdorf Room Perfect EQ, ARC (Anthem), TRINNOV, and all that Jazz that use FIR or IIR, or a combination of these two type of TAPs (digital filters), that also works in the Time domain (taking into consideration acoustic time arrivals in your room)?

Some pro recording engineers use one of the above systems and they cannot live without.

If you start at the recording sources that are less than perfect to begin with;
how can you try to preserve the 'correct' sound?

Most high-end pre/pros now include one type of Room EQ's implementation or another.
...McIntosh, Classe (in the Bass), Anthem, etc.

* I agree with you on what you just said from your above post, but for most common audio mortals; I believe in some sort of Room EQ than not at all.

Just my

Cheers,
Bob
Hi Bob,

Well we each have to decide for ourselves of course but in my 3 setups at home I much prefer the non- EQ approach.

james

Last edited by James Tanner - Bryston; 04-21-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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  #115  
Old 04-21-2012, 02:27 PM
LordoftheRingsEE LordoftheRingsEE is offline
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Absolutely fair James.

Do you use acoustic treatments in all your three setups?

- What kind of Music/Movies are you into James? Or is that cover pretty much anything & everything like most people?

Did you ever tried one of the systems I just mentioned above, in one of your own setups before? ...Like did you experiment with a PC (or Mac), and with some tools like REW for measurements, and quality mic(s), and all that Jazz?
...You know, fool around a bit with target curves and your own set of ears.

Regards,
Bob
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  #116  
Old 04-21-2012, 02:41 PM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordoftheRingsEE View Post
Absolutely fair James.

Do you use acoustic treatments in all your three setups?

- What kind of Music/Movies are you into James? Or is that cover pretty much anything & everything like most people?

Did you ever tried one of the systems I just mentioned above, in one of your own setups before? ...Like did you experiment with a PC (or Mac), and with some tools like REW for measurements, and quality mic(s), and all that Jazz?
...You know, fool around a bit with target curves and your own set of ears.

Regards,
Bob
Hi Bob,

Yes I have tried a lot of the different systems. I ony have a limited amount of treatments because to be honest I find I was over doing it with the treatments and things just started sounding very un-natural to me with the rooms being too dead and lacking dynamics. In the last 10 years or so I have really gone the minimalist approach and used speaker placemant as my main way to get the best sound in each room.

I use my largest room which is 23x16.5 as my main surround room and because I am in the business try to use as many different speakers and systems as I have access to which really helps me place where my own products fit in.

As for movies watched - really like drama and science fiction and now that we have a 3 year old grandson I am watching a lot of PIXAR

james
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  #117  
Old 04-21-2012, 03:12 PM
LordoftheRingsEE LordoftheRingsEE is offline
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PIXAR animation films! ...I got them all, on Blu. ...2D and 3D.

James, do you own some PMC speakers?
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  #118  
Old 04-21-2012, 03:26 PM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordoftheRingsEE View Post
PIXAR animation films! ...I got them all, on Blu. ...2D and 3D.

James, do you own some PMC speakers?
Gee's you name it I have owned it

Currently in house I have , PMC - IB2S, Quad 2905, Magnepan MG1.7 and Magnepan MG3.7, with Magnepan CCR Center speaker, Roger Sanders 10C Electrostatics, Thiel 3.7's, and Axiom 80's. For Subs I have (2 of each) - PMC SB100's, PMC TLE's, Thiel SS1's and Axiom EP500's

james
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  #119  
Old 04-21-2012, 03:30 PM
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metaphacts metaphacts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston View Post
I have been asked a few times why no digital room correction on the Bryston SP-3 Processor.

The problem I see with Digital room correction through ‘EQ’ is that it totally screws up the direct sound vs the reflected sound coming from the speaker.

When you listen to a speaker in a room you are listening to what we call the ‘power response’ and you hear all the direct sound as well as the reflected sound mixed together. So the listening experience is a combination of all the direct and reflected sound waves in a given room with a given speaker. When you alter the ‘direct sound’ at the speaker using ‘EQ’ it totally changes the relationship between the direct and reflected sound and is a disaster when it comes to ‘time smear’. So the speaker designer has spent years attempting to get flat frequency and phase response from his speaker and we come along and force the speaker to do anything but accurate signal transfer. Also if you are going to use ‘EQ’ try and only ‘reduce’ the ‘peaks’ in the room and not ‘amplify’ the troughs. Amplifying the troughs can play havoc with your speaker drivers power handling.

A lot of these newer types of ‘EQ’ products try and average a group of curves taken from many different locations in the room as they are attempting to reduce the negative effects of the single listening chair dilemma. Having a single spot in the room which measures flat but everywhere else in the room measures like crap is not a good result in my opinion. I think you are much better off adjusting the speaker location and using proper room treatments. If all else fails maybe some ‘EQ’ can be used but I would recommend keeping the correction only for the very low bass frequencies and stay away from upper bass, mids and higher frequency ‘EQ’ where room affects are not an issue due to the shorter wavelengths involved. I am hopeful that we will see many more Subwoofers with built in room ‘EQ’ which would be the better solution in my opinion if you are forced to use room correction.

Also ‘Room Correction’ much like ‘Video’ is changing quickly and I wanted the SP-3 to be a long-term purchase for our customers so adding specific dedicated boxes as the current technologies develop to the SP-3 made more sense to me going forward rather than obsoleting some questionable feature in the SP-3.

Hope this helps.

James

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  #120  
Old 04-21-2012, 03:34 PM
LordoftheRingsEE LordoftheRingsEE is offline
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...And I bet you do own some Bryston power amplifiers as well? ...McIntosh amps?

What 'bout subs?
...I know that you don't live too far from the Paradigm Reference Signature SUB 2 Subwoofer; ever consider a pair of those?
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