D/A with Olive, Sonos, SqueezeBox, Transporter and other

[cmalak]

Thx Jim. I try...

[blacsno]

Originally Posted by cmalak

Blacsno...the other part of the answer to your question is not only the file format (mp3, FLAC, AIFF, etc...) which obviously represents files of differing resolution but also the jitter associated with each transport and the DAC's ability to reject or correct for jitter. Jitter has to do with timing errors in how those 0s and 1s are delivered and received/processed by the DAC. So it is not that the 0s and 1s are different among didfferent players but that their jitter characteristic translates into data error in the time domain. Depending on your DAC's ability to reclock the data and adjust for jitter, different transports will have just that bit of difference in sonics because of their associated jitter characteristics.

Okay…… I’m guessing that my point of contention isn’t very clear. My questions are with pre D/A conversion process. I’m going to stick with the use of FLAC files, because of the lossless format in 2 channel mode. This is how I understand the FLAC format.

What is FLAC?
FLAC stands for Free Lossless Audio Codec, an audio format similar to MP3, but lossless, meaning that audio is compressed in FLAC without any loss in quality. This is similar to how Zip works, except with FLAC you will get much better compression because it is designed specifically for audio, and you can play back compressed FLAC files in your favorite player (or your car or home stereo, just like you would an MP3 file.

Whether you own a Squeeze Box, Soolos, Sonus, Olive 4HD, PC/Apple, other. The fact is they all process FLAC files in the same manner! Then they introduce data to a D/A converter from McIntosh or Emerson you get my meaning. They will each sound alike albeit different levels sound quality, from each D/A manufacture, but will sound the same. Remember we are discussing PRE D/A conversion.

I decided to do an “A” to “B” comparison with my Squeeze Box vs. PC with a RME Hammerfall HDSP 9632. The Hammerfall will use digital XLR connector "CHEAP", and the Squeeze Box will use Audio Metallurgy GA-0 WBT connectors. Both units will use the PC server to access the FLAC files. McIntosh MDA1000 will do the D/A post conversion process. Forcing my son and girlfriend as test subjects!

What where the results?
When using a FLAC format both units sounded exactly the same. Which does makes sense!! A FLAC file is a zip file per say and both units unzipped the file and shipping the data for D/A conversion.

What are the conclusions?
The Hammerfall is a 550.00 USD PCI sound card vs. the 300.00 USD Squeeze Box. Why such a price vs. performance differences? Both units have their own D/A converters. Now when testing both units D/A converter, you do hear a difference.
Whether you own a Squeeze Box, Soolos, Sonus, Olive 4HD, or PC/Apple, or other. They all will process the sound identical, when using the FLAC format and a external D/A converter end of story. What we are paying for is features. Hi-resolution formats, user interface, internal hard drive, or just have that matching box ie MS750. So spend the cash on D/A converter, pre-amps, and amps. IMO

[jdandy]

blacsno.......We don't have to listen to your system, you do. Make yourself happy. That's all that really matters. Spend your money where you best see fit.

[blacsno]

Originally Posted by jdandy

blacsno.......We don't have to listen to your system, you do. Make yourself happy. That's all that really matters. Spend your money where you best see fit.

ROTFL..... It's just info. I've seen this question in other posting. Yet nobody would address it..... I was amazed on what I learned. Just passing along info..... It's just nice to know for once monies can be spent else where.

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by blacsno

Okay…… I’m guessing that my point of contention isn’t very clear. My questions are with pre D/A conversion process. I’m going to stick with the use of FLAC files, because of the lossless format in 2 channel mode. This is how I understand the FLAC format.

What is FLAC?
FLAC stands for Free Lossless Audio Codec, an audio format similar to MP3, but lossless, meaning that audio is compressed in FLAC without any loss in quality. This is similar to how Zip works, except with FLAC you will get much better compression because it is designed specifically for audio, and you can play back compressed FLAC files in your favorite player (or your car or home stereo, just like you would an MP3 file.

Whether you own a Squeeze Box, Soolos, Sonus, Olive 4HD, PC/Apple, other. The fact is they all process FLAC files in the same manner! Then they introduce data to a D/A converter from McIntosh or Emerson you get my meaning. They will each sound alike albeit different levels sound quality, from each D/A manufacture, but will sound the same. Remember we are discussing PRE D/A conversion.

I decided to do an “A” to “B” comparison with my Squeeze Box vs. PC with a RME Hammerfall HDSP 9632. The Hammerfall will use digital XLR connector "CHEAP", and the Squeeze Box will use Audio Metallurgy GA-0 WBT connectors. Both units will use the PC server to access the FLAC files. McIntosh MDA1000 will do the D/A post conversion process. Forcing my son and girlfriend as test subjects!

What where the results?
When using a FLAC format both units sounded exactly the same. Which does makes sense!! A FLAC file is a zip file per say and both units unzipped the file and shipping the data for D/A conversion.

What are the conclusions?
The Hammerfall is a 550.00 USD PCI sound card vs. the 300.00 USD Squeeze Box. Why such a price vs. performance differences? Both units have their own D/A converters. Now when testing both units D/A converter, you do hear a difference.
Whether you own a Squeeze Box, Soolos, Sonus, Olive 4HD, or PC/Apple, or other. They all will process the sound identical, when using the FLAC format and a external D/A converter end of story. What we are paying for is features. Hi-resolution formats, user interface, internal hard drive, or just have that matching box ie MS750. So spend the cash on D/A converter, pre-amps, and amps. IMO

I guess we just come up with different conclusions.

1) Just because two pieces of gear measure the same, does not mean they will sound the same.
2) We can only assume that all those units process FLAC files the same before they wirelessly send the data out.
3) Sonos and Squeezbox (I think) get the data over a wireless connection from your computer and move it wirelessly. There could be losses there.
4) If all FLAC sounds the same to you, and you are happy with the sound of FLAC versus not compressed files. Then you should ecstatic with the sound of the MDA-1000 no matter the source.

I agree with your last point, spend the money on a great DAC, then on good amps and pre-amps. I would add one point get a flexible server.

[blacsno]

Originally Posted by Stillone

I guess we just come up with different conclusions.

1) Just because two pieces of gear measure the same, does not mean they will sound the same.
2) We can only assume that all those units process FLAC files the same before they wirelessly send the data out.
3) Sonos and Squeezbox (I think) get the data over a wireless connection from your computer and move it wirelessly. There could be losses there.
4) If all FLAC sounds the same to you, and you are happy with the sound of FLAC versus not compressed files. Then you should ecstatic with the sound of the MDA-1000 no matter the source.

I agree with your last point, spend the money on a great DAC, then on good amps and pre-amps. I would add one point get a flexible server.

hmmmmm
1) Just because two pieces of gear measure the same, does not mean they will sound the same.
a.) I'm with you on that one!!!

2) We can only assume that all those units process FLAC files the same before they wirelessly send the data out.
a.) Nope... The software only execute the unzipping program. It can't unzipped a version per equipment used. I'm sure it could be done, but FLAC is open sourced software. So why even bother it's the true lossless format! Example your internet browser works same no matter what type of computer used.

3) Sonos and Squeezbox (I think) get the data over a wireless connection from your computer and move it wirelessly. There could be losses there.
a.) I prefer to use wired vs. wireless...... bigger pipe for data!!! Packet loss...hmmm maybe! That would show up in a wireless setup vs. wired. Thinking outside the box....... heavy network traffic plus downloading . I'm using 1000Gbit for my LAN with CAT5E cable.

4) If all FLAC sounds the same to you, and you are happy with the sound of FLAC versus not compressed files. Then you should ecstatic with the sound of the MDA-1000 no matter the source.
a.) FLAC isn't a compressed file!! It's a zipped file which unzipped by software for play back "True lossless". Your point is valid for WMA the almost lossless format.
b.) MDA1000 or any other D/A the results have to be the same. Albeit differences in the cost in conversion process for final analog output.

Okay okay I'm stop beating the dead horse!! Being a engineer can sometimes be a handicap in a social setting.

Ken

[jdandy]

Engineers designed the Hyatt Regency walkway that collapsed in Kansas City Missouri in 1981 killing 114 people.

Engineers designed the Kemper Arena in Kansas City, too. Fortunately it was empty when the roof collapsed in 1979.

As I recall, there were a few engineers involved in designing Chernobyl, as well. Perfect calculations? I don't think so.

I'll bet all those enginners were socially handicapped, as well.

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by blacsno

hmmmmm
1) Just because two pieces of gear measure the same, does not mean they will sound the same.
a.) I'm with you on that one!!!

2) We can only assume that all those units process FLAC files the same before they wirelessly send the data out.
a.) Nope... The software only execute the unzipping program. It can't unzipped a version per equipment used. I'm sure it could be done, but FLAC is open sourced software. So why even bother it's the true lossless format! Example your internet browser works same no matter what type of computer used.

3) Sonos and Squeezbox (I think) get the data over a wireless connection from your computer and move it wirelessly. There could be losses there.
a.) I prefer to use wired vs. wireless...... bigger pipe for data!!! Packet loss...hmmm maybe! That would show up in a wireless setup vs. wired. Thinking outside the box....... heavy network traffic plus downloading . I'm using 1000Gbit for my LAN with CAT5E cable.

4) If all FLAC sounds the same to you, and you are happy with the sound of FLAC versus not compressed files. Then you should ecstatic with the sound of the MDA-1000 no matter the source.
a.) FLAC isn't a compressed file!! It's a zipped file which unzipped by software for play back "True lossless". Your point is valid for WMA the almost lossless format.
b.) MDA1000 or any other D/A the results have to be the same. Albeit differences in the cost in conversion process for final analog output.

Okay okay I'm stop beating the dead horse!! Being a engineer can sometimes be a handicap in a social setting.

Ken

Although FLAC is in theory Lossless, that does not mean that after encoding/decoding it sounds like the original source. As an over simplification, the Orchestra is reading the same score but the notes do not come out the same. The process of a laser reading the data off a disc, doing the error correction, then sending it to the DAC's on a CD player sounds different to many of us (usually better) than having that data read of the disc, run thru the FLAC process, written to a disc, re-read from the disc and then sent to the digital outputs or DAC. I think that has been noted in several threads on this site.
Jim
The horse is now dead for me too.

[blacsno]

Originally Posted by Stillone

Although FLAC is in theory Lossless, that does not mean that after encoding/decoding it sounds like the original source. As an over simplification, the Orchestra is reading the same score but the notes do not come out the same. The process of a laser reading the data off a disc, doing the error correction, then sending it to the DAC's on a CD player sounds different to many of us (usually better) than having that data read of the disc, run thru the FLAC process, written to a disc, re-read from the disc and then sent to the digital outputs or DAC. I think that has been noted in several threads on this site.
Jim
The horse is now dead for me too.

True...true so true!! The point I was trying to get across is.......

1.) The FLAC file could be a perfect bit for bit copy or close approx. Regardless of the condition of the FLAC file. You can play that file at Ivan's home or yours home even my lowly system. With multiple products like Sonus, SqueezeBox, Olive4D, Soolos, and PC/Apple unzipping for play back. Connected to a single server, through a single D/A converter "you pick". The final analog signal will be identical in sound. Yes... Ivan's will sound the best! , but the same! Your system will be next , but the same! With my system bringing up the rear , but the same! My hope was to show inform others that.....

2.) When you decide to select a music server product. Decision matrix should also encompass the following.

a.) D/A Converter: Do I already own one? How good is it, does it have enough inputs to accept the new hardware? If the D/A converter passes that criteria, why spend a single dime on that feature?

b.) Storage: Size DOES matter! You'd like to be able to backup! Hard drives WILL fail. Losing lot of GB's music will suck, reloading again "SHUDDER".

c.) Navigation: How do you wish to access this huge amount data. Example
I use iTouch instead of that "Detroit Lion" styled and interface from Logitech!!

e.) Wire vs. Wireless: I know..I know... I know!! If you can hard wire the box to a server do it!!! You'll thank me later.....

f.) Hi-Rez: Hell Yea!! If you have a multi channel setup! 2-channel folks need not apply! ROTFL

g.) Now if others wish the diamond encrusted enclosure, with raised platinum lettering. If that gives them the feeling superiority over others.... hey who am I to judge. Yep.... Wow that enclosure is sweeeeeet

Whew.....