VPI Classic 1-2 or three

[Markd51]

Not so sure the HW-19 was the last, or only VPI Table to use a suspended Plinth/Base.
I know some of the VPI TNT Models could be considered "suspended", particularly the MK-V Model that used small Firestone Air Bag Suspension, and had Shrader Valves at each of the the four corner's towers.

The sky could be the limit, if you're looking to rebuild from the ground up, and basically re=use the Platter, SAMA Motor, Tonearm. The bottom line I reckon, is how much do you wish to invest?

Granted, you could do something like an Aries III Clone, or even an HR-X sort of clone, with sandwiches of solid .500", or even 1.00" thick Acrylic, and Aluminum Sheet, or?

The raw materials isn;t a problem acquiring, places like McMaster Carr can supply Aluminum in various thicknesses. Plastics Shops-Factories can supply the Acrylic.

As far as I know, the Classic can be imagined as a HW-19 with it's base stuffed completely with MDF Sheet from top to bottom. Only areas that would have a need to be relieved would be where a motor (or SAMA) would sit, pass through for the Bearing Shaft, and possibly the Tonearm Mounting Shaft, dependent on the type-model Arm used?

Hard to say what any prototype may sound like once completed, but I know many erotic designs often rely upon a mix of dis-similar materials, and the other is weight, and mass. Harry W once babbled many moons ago about the perfect Table being made of concrete, weighing 500 lbs, and floating on a bed of air.

The two major deal breakers, and the largest influences I feel to contribute to the HW-19's quality of sound, will be the quality of the Tonearm, and the weight-mass of the Platter.

The VPI SAMA would not have a problem driving the now no longer made 25lb Super Platter, and in fact at one time, it was an option for this particular Table.

And would a $5,000 TriPlanar Tonearm look stupid, or be stupid on an HW-19 Table? Not necessarily. If I could afford one, I'd put one on mine. Some might say it would be like putting a silk hat on a pig, but on a full blown HW-19 MK-IV, or in custom form, I don't think a TriPlanar Arm would be a disadvantage.

Lowering of noise floor, a high quality Tonearm, and a good Platter that has good mass will be influences on just how good a HW-19 Table can perform with any given Cartridge on board. Not to mention the Cabling, and the Phono Stage downline.

Is the VPI Classic III better than my customized HW-19 Table? Maybe. It should be for the asking price. Then it again, it might not hold too much advantage, particularly for the price difference.

Is the Classic III better than a full blown TNT MK-V? Hard to say, I've never done a side by side. For sure, I see a lot of these nice TNT's pop up from time to time, and their prices aren;t that bad. Trading the HW-19Jr for one of these older flagship models might not be a bad move, both sonically, and financially. I threw money at my HW-19 over a long period of time. To throw gobs of money at one all at once, might not be such a cost effective, nor wise move. Lots of tables out there, it's hard to tell someone else which way to go.

For sure, a Table like a TNT V is one fairly big Table. You'll need lots of rack space/shelf space to carry one.

If you're interesting in hanging onto your HW-19, do tell us what you don;t like about it, particularly the sound? What Arm you have on board? And what platter? Mark

[cmalak]

Markd51...I stand corrected on the HW19 being the last suspended design int he VPI stable of tts. Nice feedback above. I will be interested to read Don's answers to your questions.

[DonBattles]

Originally Posted by Markd51

Not so sure the HW-19 was the last, or only VPI Table to use a suspended Plinth/Base.
I know some of the VPI TNT Models could be considered "suspended", particularly the MK-V Model that used small Firestone Air Bag Suspension, and had Shrader Valves at each of the the four corner's towers.

The sky could be the limit, if you're looking to rebuild from the ground up, and basically re=use the Platter, SAMA Motor, Tonearm. The bottom line I reckon, is how much do you wish to invest?

Granted, you could do something like an Aries III Clone, or even an HR-X sort of clone, with sandwiches of solid .500", or even 1.00" thick Acrylic, and Aluminum Sheet, or?

The raw materials isn;t a problem acquiring, places like McMaster Carr can supply Aluminum in various thicknesses. Plastics Shops-Factories can supply the Acrylic.

As far as I know, the Classic can be imagined as a HW-19 with it's base stuffed completely with MDF Sheet from top to bottom. Only areas that would have a need to be relieved would be where a motor (or SAMA) would sit, pass through for the Bearing Shaft, and possibly the Tonearm Mounting Shaft, dependent on the type-model Arm used?

Hard to say what any prototype may sound like once completed, but I know many erotic designs often rely upon a mix of dis-similar materials, and the other is weight, and mass. Harry W once babbled many moons ago about the perfect Table being made of concrete, weighing 500 lbs, and floating on a bed of air.

The two major deal breakers, and the largest influences I feel to contribute to the HW-19's quality of sound, will be the quality of the Tonearm, and the weight-mass of the Platter.

The VPI SAMA would not have a problem driving the now no longer made 25lb Super Platter, and in fact at one time, it was an option for this particular Table.

And would a $5,000 TriPlanar Tonearm look stupid, or be stupid on an HW-19 Table? Not necessarily. If I could afford one, I'd put one on mine. Some might say it would be like putting a silk hat on a pig, but on a full blown HW-19 MK-IV, or in custom form, I don't think a TriPlanar Arm would be a disadvantage.

Lowering of noise floor, a high quality Tonearm, and a good Platter that has good mass will be influences on just how good a HW-19 Table can perform with any given Cartridge on board. Not to mention the Cabling, and the Phono Stage downline.

Is the VPI Classic III better than my customized HW-19 Table? Maybe. It should be for the asking price. Then it again, it might not hold too much advantage, particularly for the price difference.

Is the Classic III better than a full blown TNT MK-V? Hard to say, I've never done a side by side. For sure, I see a lot of these nice TNT's pop up from time to time, and their prices aren;t that bad. Trading the HW-19Jr for one of these older flagship models might not be a bad move, both sonically, and financially. I threw money at my HW-19 over a long period of time. To throw gobs of money at one all at once, might not be such a cost effective, nor wise move. Lots of tables out there, it's hard to tell someone else which way to go.

For sure, a Table like a TNT V is one fairly big Table. You'll need lots of rack space/shelf space to carry one.

If you're interesting in hanging onto your HW-19, do tell us what you don;t like about it, particularly the sound? What Arm you have on board? And what platter? Mark

I've been thinking long and hard about what path I'll take and top be perfectly clear I'm not unhappy with the HW-19JR. I'm simply a tweaker by nature and love to modify and build things. The only thing that slows me down on not having all the gear that would be needed to do a "pro" job and since I'm into form as much as function I need it to be good on both.

That being said Music Direct has a VPI aluminum platter for sale as DEMO so I pulled the trigger on that and am considering building a second table, still to be determined.

As for materials I'm thinking MDF with marine/cabinet grade plywood in alternating layers maybe 6-8 inches thick with using 1/2 inch layers. I was also thinking of some exotic hardwood sandwiching a SS or aluminum plate.

I also realize that my AudioQuest PT-9 tonearm is not the best and will also be considering an upgrade here as well. In the end the easist thing would be to buy another table, but that would be too easy

[cmalak]

Don...have you done this type of project before? Just curious if you are concerned (or not) about getting the geometry right (i.e., centering the bearing and sub-platter assembly and where to make the cutout for the tonearm so you get pivot-to-spindle distance right, so that the overhang geometry is not screwy, or if you need to make a cutout in the plinth for the SAMA so you have optimal distance, etc...)?

[DonBattles]

Originally Posted by cmalak

Don...have you done this type of project before? Just curious if you are concerned (or not) about getting the geometry right (i.e., centering the bearing and sub-platter assembly and where to make the cutout for the tonearm so you get pivot-to-spindle distance right, so that the overhang geometry is not screwy, or if you need to make a cutout in the plinth for the SAMA so you have optimal distance, etc...)?

No experience but not worried. There is a great tonearm database over at vinylengine.com with over 1000 tonearms listed. Plus JR could serve as a template. But this is why I'm doing some heavy research and considering all the pitfalls involved and how I will address them. Believe me this is still in the very early stages of planning and information gathering.

[cmalak]

Don...I look forward to your project. Should be fun

[Markd51]

Don, I myself am running a "lowly" AQ PT-9 Arm on my own custom 19 Table, and I think it is a darn fine basic arm. No, it doesn't have all the doo dads, like VTA on the fly, etc, but basically, I think it's a well engineered Arm, very good bearings, very good build quality.

I'm running a ZYX Airy 3X on this Arm, and I don't think I'm being shortchanged by much.
The MintLP protractor helped get that Cartridge dialed in very nicely, and it sings.

The last additions on my table, was I decided to try something different than the Sorbothane Puck Suspension, even though many say it was superior to the springs that were once coveted as an upgrade on the 19 Table.

Those last additions were to "Herbie-ize" the Table with many of Steve Herbelin's products. Tall Tenderfeet replaced the sorbo pucks, and some 44mm grungebuster dots that went into the recesses of the Base, where the pucks sat.

Different feet on the base (Audiopoints) also given the grungebuster treatment.

My table sits on a custom made SRA Iso Base V-3.0, specifically for the HW-19 Table, and I know these are products that Masterlu knows well about. The Iso Base even seemed to be lacking at first, until it was then Herbie-Ized, sitting the Spike feet coupling discs on all Grungebuster Discs.

Neutrality is the best word I can think of, with the addition of the herbies products. A character that I was looking for, and got.

My modifications, didn't alter the basics of the HW-19. I could change everything back to stock easily, and the table has not in any way been butchered-altered.

I;m sorry I cannot post pics here, but you might've seen my Table in other forums? Mark

[Markd51]

I'm gathering the Classic Platter is of a different diameter than any of the older VPI Platters. There may possibly be a need of another different Pulley to be installed on your SAMA?

If so, make sure VPI sells you another Pulley of the same length, and the stepped Pulley would be the ideal one to have.

[DonBattles]

Originally Posted by Markd51

I'm gathering the Classic Platter is of a different diameter than any of the older VPI Platters. There may possibly be a need of another different Pulley to be installed on your SAMA?

If so, make sure VPI sells you another Pulley of the same length, and the stepped Pulley would be the ideal one to have.

I'm not sure about the diameter but I'm running a SDS speed can be fine tuned if needed. And I hope you didn't think I was trying to imply the PT9 tonearm is inferior. In fact I know it's a pretty good but if I were going to build
another table it would be a great time to try a different arm. And yes Mark I do remember/know you and thank you for your input, it is appreciated and valued.

[Markd51]

Originally Posted by DonBattles

I'm not sure about the diameter but I'm running a SDS speed can be fine tuned if needed. And I hope you didn't think I was trying to imply the PT9 tonearm is inferior. In fact I know it's a pretty good but if I were going to build
another table it would be a great time to try a different arm. And yes Mark I do remember/know you and thank you for your input, it is appreciated and valued.

Hi Don, Yes, I understand what you mean about the AQ PT-9 Arm.
Yes, it's good basic arm, but I know there's no argument, that there's of course much better Tonearms out there, if, one has deep enough pockets.

Arms like the SME's would be right at home. So would any of the Origin Live Arms.

Yes, I have the SDS too, I forgot to ask you about that. If you have the newer version SAMA like I do, this too, with its stepped pulley might also allow a degree of speed tuning-adjustment?

If you were possibly familiar from other forums of what I did with my own HW-19 Table, it too started life as a Junior Model. As you well know, all HW-19 Tables were the same in regards to the wooden base. Only differences, were the foilcal on the back of the base, declaring what model it was originally from the factory.

Probably all the Junior Bases had the threaded T-Nuts installed, where the Sorbothane Pucks sit, meaning they could've easily used any of the Springs that VPI once provided, and of course any Plinth-Sub Chassis combination as well.

My original MDF Plinth was used as a template, I had a Plastics factory cut me a sheet of solid 1.00" Black Acrylic. I myself didn't have access the the tools needed, nor the expertise of precision of fabrication that I desired, so I let a highly experienced machinist drill all the necessary holes, underside routing, and tapped holes for the Tonearm Mounting Base.

I desired 211mm S-P Distance for the AQ PT-9 Arm, and the machinist achieved that spec to within +- .003". Using the MintLP protractor, spec'd at exactly 211mm, after alignment with the Airy 3X on board the Arm, the Cartridge's Mounting Screws I noted sat dead center within the Headshell's Slots. I also had the Machinist custom fabricate a custom Arm Mounting base, which was essentially a clone of the AQ Armbase, but exactly .500" taller, to better accomodate the thicker MK-IV Platter. A donut shaped spacer from Aluminum, or Delrin-Acrylic could also be used, and achieve the same results of raising the Arm higher off the Plinth, without all the "ugly" tonearm mounting shaft showing.


The AQ Arms take very well to very high grade Tonearm Cabling. The better the Cable, the better the sound you'll extract from that Arm.

I'm running an older AQ Emerald Cable. If I could afford it, I'd probably have a PAD Venustas on board. A hell of a lot of money though for that Cable!


I was able to acquire a later version NOS Steel Subchassis Sheet, and that was attached to the underside of the one piece acrylic plinth, adding weight, and mass.
I use the first version 16lb Mk-IV Platter.

The Classic Platter you are acquiring, should be the 18lb version, and a machined platter. I remember earlier talk that the Classic Platter was originally Investment Cast, and only weighing 15lbs. And that it came from overseas, probably an Asian Sub-Contractor.

I think what happened (I could be wrong) was Harry W had problems with acquisition of these platters originally, and thus dropped that idea, and probably then went with a local USA machining company for sub-contracting the Classic Platters.

Hope some of this helps, Mark