Down the Shunyata Rabbit Hole--Now What?

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by dkorbal

kennyb123 Please allow me to offer some support for the OP. I get where he is coming from because I'm in a similar position.

Dkorbal,
Thanks!

Originally Posted by dkorbal

Your cables are similar to what I would be looking at purchasing when the time comes so I would be interested in your reply to the question. Did you always believe "better" cable will bring better sound or did you come from a more pessimistic position?

I started as highly skeptical--basically thinking it was all audio jewelry and BS. That being said, as more and more people that I respect said there's something to power cords and conditioning, the more I moved away from "snake oil" to being open but skeptical.

The RGPC Power Stations were mostly added because I needed more outlets and a dealer I trusted recommended them. I never heard any benefit. Measuring them with the Ideal SureTest indicates they significantly restrict instantaneous current and the Entech says they don't do anything on the noise that it measures. They do have protection and I suspect the big inductor inside probably acts a bit as a virtual flywheel. I may use them for my incoming Sound Lab power supplies if I don't end up keeping the Shunyata.

The TWL power cords were almost entirely bought based on raves from folks on Audio Circle and positive show reports. Measuring them with the SureTest indicates the large wire used is effective--there's basically no difference between plugging the SureTest into the outlet or the TWL cords. Both show >700A instantaneous current. The Entec test showed, as expected, no noise reduction with the TWL cords. I have not noticed any improvement in my system with the addition of the TWL cords with the caveat that my system sounds quite good and I don't drive a huge amount of power as I listen at moderate levels and my speakers are relatively efficient at 91 dB.

The differences I'm beginning to hear (I think) with the Shunyata gear is increased emotional involvement, air, space, soundstage depth and width, tonal purity of instruments, and a solidity of instruments, ie less ethereal--the air doesn't come at the expense of solidity (if that makes any sense).

I contrast this experience (and my hopes/expectations) with the AV Room Service EVP isolation pads where after I installed them under my subs there was a palpable difference in bass cleanliness and speed. Adding them under the Kefs also improved things, but not to the same degree. Putting them under amps and front end components really didn't make a noticeable difference. I've left them in place, however, because I figure they don't hurt anything.

Hope this makes sense.

[kennyb123]

Originally Posted by dkorbal

Your cables are similar to what I would be looking at purchasing when the time comes so I would be interested in your reply to the question. Did you always believe "better" cable will bring better sound or did you come from a more pessimistic position? Please don't mistake this for a snake oil position of mine I'm truly intrigued by cables and if you were won over because of what you heard or measured would carry more weight for me. Knowing where audiophiles come from on this subject is important.

To ask about my “belief” makes it sound like a religious statement. I was initially incredulous that I would actually hear cables making a difference. Certainly I never heard or saw differences when using Monster Cables on my affordable AV gear. It was only when I ventured into a high end audio store that I heard what was possible with audiophile gear. I was shocked as I never thought that music reproduction like what I heard was possible. So the question then became how do I achieve that myself at home on my budget? I did a lot of reading and listening and comparisons and eventually came to realize that a system is only as good as its weakest link. “Everything matters” including cables, power cords and supports.

Hearing systems a lot better than mine really helped establish a North Star for me. My questions to the owners of these systems were aimed at figuring out how they achieved what I was hearing. I wonder if people who claim they don’t believe cables matter actually try to hear systems much better than theirs.

A little over a decade ago I worked at Microsoft. There were all kinds of groups we could join there. One was actually called “Microsoft Audiophiles” and was comprised of employees and contractors who considered themselves to be audiophiles. A sizable portion of the group were of the mind that cables couldn’t possibly matter. I repeatedly offered invitations to come over to my house to hear for themselves the differences. Not a single one took me up on the offer early on. This was valuable learning for me. For many, the ‘belief’ in cables is akin to a religious tenet and they simply choose not to believe and didn’t care to have their position challenged. They just wanted to believe what they wanted to believe.

Eventually though one of these guys came over. He brought with him an interconnect from Blue Jeans Cables. I allowed him to acclimate to my system but then eventually substituted it for the MIT cable I was using. The look on his face was priceless. He went on to describe how the soundstage collapsed. It really had and it wasn’t subtle. We did a few more swaps and I had him tease out the differences he heard. We all hear differently so I’m always fascinated with what others pick up on. The differences in this case were easy to pick out. That BJC cable clearly showed how the weakest link could drag down the performance of a system. We both agreed that the BJC made it tough to enjoy my system. Next up I threw in a Nordost interconnect without telling him the price relative to the MIT. After a series of comparisons, he thought it also absolutely clobbered the BJC, but it at the same time fell short of the MIT. We played tracks he liked and he was able to easily call out the differences, just as he would if we swapped speakers instead.

That MIT interconnect actually retailed for $3,000 while that Nordost interconnect retailed for $1000. I paid a fraction of retail for the MIT interconnect and it remained in my system until I heard a Shunyata Anaconda. This $2250 interconnect embarrassed the $3000 MIT. It was astonishing how much better it was - it simply got out of the way better. Everything opened up and became more natural. The Alpha v1 that I have now also easily beat the Anaconda by doing an even better job of getting out of the way. It just seemed one step closer to the sound of no cable at all, with less grain and better transparency.

Given the pandemic, it’s not the best time obviously to go hear other systems or to invite others over to hear yours. But I think this is a very important thing to do. Nothing can build more confidence in one’s ability to hear differences than to have someone else call out a difference you are hearing at that exact moment you are also hearing it. I had no idea the BJC interconnect was going to cause the soundstage to so profoundly collapse, but that this was the first thing my friend called out rules out expectation bias as neither of us had that expectation.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by kennyb123

To ask about my “belief” makes it sound like a religious statement. I was initially incredulous that I would actually hear cables making a difference. Certainly I never heard or saw differences when using Monster Cables on my affordable AV gear. It was only when I ventured into a high end audio store that I heard what was possible with audiophile gear. I was shocked as I never thought that music reproduction like what I heard was possible. So the question then became how do I achieve that myself at home on my budget? I did a lot of reading and listening and comparisons and eventually came to realize that a system is only as good as its weakest link. “Everything matters” including cables, power cords and supports.

Hearing systems a lot better than mine really helped establish a North Star for me. My questions to the owners of these systems were aimed at figuring out how they achieved what I was hearing. I wonder if people who claim they don’t believe cables matter actually try to hear systems much better than theirs.

A little over a decade ago I worked at Microsoft. There were all kinds of groups we could join there. One was actually called “Microsoft Audiophiles” and was comprised of employees and contractors who considered themselves to be audiophiles. A sizable portion of the group were of the mind that cables couldn’t possibly matter. I repeatedly offered invitations to come over to my house to hear for themselves the differences. Not a single one took me up on the offer early on. This was valuable learning for me. For many, the ‘belief’ in cables is akin to a religious tenet and they simply choose not to believe and didn’t care to have their position challenged. They just wanted to believe what they wanted to believe.

Eventually though one of these guys came over. He brought with him an interconnect from Blue Jeans Cables. I allowed him to acclimate to my system but then eventually substituted it for the MIT cable I was using. The look on his face was priceless. He went on to describe how the soundstage collapsed. It really had and it wasn’t subtle. We did a few more swaps and I had him tease out the differences he heard. We all hear differently so I’m always fascinated with what others pick up on. The differences in this case were easy to pick out. That BJC cable clearly showed how the weakest link could drag down the performance of a system. We both agreed that the BJC made it tough to enjoy my system. Next up I threw in a Nordost interconnect without telling him the price relative to the MIT. After a series of comparisons, he thought it also absolutely clobbered the BJC, but it at the same time fell short of the MIT. We played tracks he liked and he was able to easily call out the differences, just as he would if we swapped speakers instead.

That MIT interconnect actually retailed for $3,000 while that Nordost interconnect retailed for $1000. I paid a fraction of retail for the MIT interconnect and it remained in my system until I heard a Shunyata Anaconda. This $2250 interconnect embarrassed the $3000 MIT. It was astonishing how much better it was - it simply got out of the way better. Everything opened up and became more natural. The Alpha v1 that I have now also easily beat the Anaconda by doing an even better job of getting out of the way. It just seemed one step closer to the sound of no cable at all, with less grain and better transparency.

Given the pandemic, it’s not the best time obviously to go hear other systems or to invite others over to hear yours. But I think this is a very important thing to do. Nothing can build more confidence in one’s ability to hear differences than to have someone else call out a difference you are hearing at that exact moment you are also hearing it. I had no idea the BJC interconnect was going to cause the soundstage to so profoundly collapse, but that this was the first thing my friend called out rules out expectation bias as neither of us had that expectation.

Kenny,
Your journey is similar to mine and I'm sure others. Everytime I hear someone else's system I am reminded why I like mine, and usually hear a few things I'd like my system to do that it doesn't.

This particular power journey started again when I listened to a pair of Sound Labs I was considering purchasing. The seller had an incredible system--Blowtorch preamp, Boulder 600W amp, and a lot of very expensive looking and unfamiliar power stuff (mostly Audioquest I think). His system sounded incredible--we even listened to a pair of speakers he designed and built which were much different from the Sound Labs, but still had their charm. I guess that planted the seed. Fast forward a few weeks to listening to the Sound Lad dealer's small city system with lots of Shunyata and Stillpoints, then a few weeks later listening to his large system with more and different Shunyata gear, and it got me interested enough to try out the Hydra boxes and cords.

Evan

[dkorbal]

Thanks guys for documenting your experiences I am truly grateful. For me at this point it’s finding the weakest link and system synergy. I’ve been working back from the speakers and recently added the preamp.

To get back to the original post Shunyata cables are on my short list for powering the system and I’ll go “down the rabbit hole” when the time comes. I just prefer not to make the wrong additions. This hobby can be expensive enough without the wrong addition.

Evan. The Halo is another short list item of mine for a DAC. Maybe pm me some time to tell me your thought about it.

[tima]

Originally Posted by ACHiPo

I have the Typhon upgraded to QR and Triton V1 (I think).

Regarding the turntable, I was thinking that it would be insensitive to noise and a very low current draw, which is why I just used a decent black cord on it. I've recently read that while it's unlikely that noise would affect the turntable sound, it's possible the motor could generate noise to other components. I think it's unlikely, but I want to try the V14 Digital just to see.

As an update, the system seemed to have a breakthrough last night. I bought and downloaded a copy of Gil Evans The Individuality of Gil Evans and was blown away by the air, depth, and width of the soundstage. This is a CD-quality FLAC, and obviously well-recorded great players, but still it made me wonder if I was finally hearing the difference I expected. Listening to familiar albums this morning (Johnny Hartman and John Coltrane, Santana Abraxas, Aaron Neville Nature Boy) and they all sound more airy and at the same time the instruments sound more solid. The Gil Evans record is obviously a special recording, but other recordings also seem to sound better as well.

Listening continues...

I know the Triton v1 very well and wrote about it here. While later Tritons continued improvements, the original was the breakthrough product, imo.

Wrt the turntable, it is more likely that the TT's power supply rather than its motor would put noise back into your system especially if it is a switch mode power supply (SMPS) which can gererate RF.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by tima

I know the Triton v1 very well and wrote about it here. While later Tritons continued improvements, the original was the breakthrough product, imo.

Wrt the turntable, it is more likely that the TT's power supply rather than its motor would put noise back into your system especially if it is a switch mode power supply (SMPS) which can gererate RF.

I understood the Triton/Typhon to be the big leagues, which is why I was surprised not to hear more difference initially.

My turntable is a Lenco. No SMPS, just an AC motor.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by dkorbal

Thanks guys for documenting your experiences I am truly grateful. For me at this point it’s finding the weakest link and system synergy. I’ve been working back from the speakers and recently added the preamp.

To get back to the original post Shunyata cables are on my short list for powering the system and I’ll go “down the rabbit hole” when the time comes. I just prefer not to make the wrong additions. This hobby can be expensive enough without the wrong addition.

Evan. The Halo is another short list item of mine for a DAC. Maybe pm me some time to tell me your thought about it.

Doug,
Will shoot you a PM.
Evan

[kennyb123]

Originally Posted by tima

I know the Triton v1 very well and wrote about it here. While later Tritons continued improvements, the original was the breakthrough product, imo.

Brilliant review! I just read it because I recently purchased a Hydra AV for my AV system. This was said to be a compact Triton and “nearly identical internally”. If I get a good measure of the benefits of the Triton that you described, I think I will be very pleased. I’ll find out tomorrow.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by kennyb123

Which power cord did you use to connect the Triton to the wall? That’s power cord is the most critical one when it comes to getting the most from any power distribution device. The other power cords matter too, of course, but the first cord can set the agenda for what follows.

I pulled the Hydra out from under the rack and removed it from the system yesterday. It only took me about 30 min to decide that I want something equivalent or better on my front end components. The Hydra Triton V2 and Typhon QR (I finally got it clarified that the Typhon was a QR from the factory) definitely does something to make most music more gripping and emotional. It is not a sound change, per se, but rather psychoacoustics for lack of a better word. Clean power does something to change the impact of the notes--kinda like listening to live music and every so often a note or slap will hit a nerve and release dopamine or something pleasurable. My system would do this occasionally before the Shunyata was installed. With the Shunyata gear it happens more often. Another totally subjective anecdote is that I received many more positive passing comments from my wife while the Hydras were in place in my front end--things like "who is that bass player? He's fantastic".

The power cord from the wall to the Typhon is a Python. I know that's an older cord, and from the sound has ferrite beads inside the sheath that rattle around when it's moved. Any information on the relative performance of this cord would be appreciated.

The umbilical is a Stealth Typhon, which I think is just the stock umbilical.

After deciding I definitely like the Hydras in my system I moved them upstream to the amps. Like when I first installed them in the front end I noticed a very subtle improvement, but nothing earthshattering from a sound perspective. I'll give them a few days in their new location and see what I think. I'd hoped to see a reduction in noise as measured with the Entech Line Noise analyzer. I plugged the analyzer into the circuit with the Hydras removed and set the gain to 100. I installed the Hydras and powered everything up. I checked the Entech in the amp outlet and the noise dropped ~2 points. I plugged it into the Triton and it was the same. I then plugged it into the front end outlet and got about the same reading. It seems pretty bizarre not to see any measurable improvement. I did not pick up any AM, so that's a good thing I suppose. I also ordered some ferrite beads that I can clamp onto the 10awg Romex that might help reduce the noise floor more.

[SCAudiophile]

The Python with the material you can hear when you move the cable may be an original Python VX (2006-2010 or so, I used those, Taipan and Anaconda, both VX and non-VX). It may also be a newer version of that.

I cannot comment on whether putting a VX before a TQR is detrimental but it sure is unecessary (IMHO) as those VX cords were made for DACs, transports, players, processors, CRTs, anything with a processor. A non-VX cord is a better choice for a Tv2 + TQR chain or any of the newest v1 or v2 non-NR cables.

FWIW....Shunyata or others may have a better or more correct opinion.

As I understand the TQR, it may take some time to reach steady state. Measure noise on line out of the Tv2 duplexes at least an hour and then again several hours later.

I do not know if TQR affects the whole circuit downstream or not. That's a question for Caelin.