AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > Manley Labs

Manley Labs Professional High-Fi Audio Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 09-11-2020, 09:50 PM
clpetersen clpetersen is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Boston
Posts: 561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonmb View Post
...it’s not the specific technology, SMPS vs LPS, it’s in the implementation.... .
+1. There are folks, Linn among them, who understand and can implement SMPS successfully.
__________________
Main - Synology/Roon; Bryston BP-17 cubed with MM phono card; EAT C-major with Ortofon MM, Chord Qutest, Bryston B-cubed amplifier; Audio Physic Midex; 'Phones Audeze LCD-3, interconnects by WireWorld, furniture by Atocha Design Office: Sonos/JRiver; OPPO HA-1, Naim NAP100 and PSB Mini-C. Media Room:, Samsung Plasma, Sonos, OPPO 205, ATI N-core driving KEF LS-50's with REL subs; furniture by BDI; Kids - REGA RP1, Sonos Play5; Summer Shack - Sonos, vintage Pioneer, Dynaudio Special 40's.

Last edited by clpetersen; 09-11-2020 at 10:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-12-2020, 02:20 AM
bart's Avatar
bart bart is online now
Life is beautiful


 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 16,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady339 View Post
Speaking of Bruno Putzey, has anyone heard the unique monitor speakers he designed, the Kii Audio 3 speakers?

There you go:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=46945


And here:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/show...t=47023&page=2
__________________
Stereo: Hegel H590, Grimm Audio MU1, Burmester 061 - 948 - V3 & V6 racks, Vivid Audio G2 Giyas, Silent Angel Bonn N8 Ethernet Switch, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse IC and SE SC, Furutech Digiflux
AV: Hegel C-53, Marantz AV8802A, Oppo BDP-203EU, Pioneer Kuro 60", Vivid Audio C1 & V1w's, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse, SE & E
In storage: Halgorythme amplifiers
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-14-2020, 01:59 AM
Steady339's Avatar
Steady339 Steady339 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: California
Posts: 712
Default

bart, thanks for the links.
__________________
Amps: PS Audio IV preamp (passive), Hafler Transnova P3100, Doge preamp, Antique Sound Lab AQ-1004 Sources: Sony UHD Blu-ray/DVD, Apple iMac, Tidal, Pure Music, Schitt Eitr DAC: Eastern Electric Minimax Plus w/ Burson V6 Classic discrete op amps Speakers: Paradigm S1 v.3 on Paradigm stands, Seismic 110 Subwoofer, PBK-1 Cables: Wireworld Silver Eclipse interconnects and speaker cables Power: Wireworld Silver Electra, Matrix power extender, cruzeFIRST Maestro outlet Accesseries: Stillpoints, SVS Subwoofer Feet
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-14-2020, 02:54 AM
Puma Cat's Avatar
Puma Cat Puma Cat is offline
conrad-johnson, baby!


 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 9,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clpetersen View Post
+1. There are folks, Linn among them, who understand and can implement SMPS successfully.
The question is, are these SMPS sending high-source impedance leakage current downstream?

Does Linn even know to measure high-source impedance leakage current?

(it's not obvious how to do this...)
__________________
First Sound Presence Deluxe 4.0 MkIII-Si Special Edition preamp, Conrad-Johnson LP70S amp, Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion w/ EAR324, Oppo BD-83SE, Sonore OpticalModule with Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 power supply, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN, SOtM UltraNeo with Keces P3 power supply, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet & Alpha USB cables, Schiit Gungnir Multibit Gen 5 USB DAC, Schiit Loki DSD DAC, Mac Mini/Roon, Harbeth 30.2 or Dynaudio Contour S3.4 w/ Esotar 2 tweeters, REL R-305, Shunyata Delta and Venom ICs, Shunyata Delta speaker cables, Shunyata Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Alpha NRv2, Venom NR-V10, and Venom V14D power cords, Shunyata Everest 8000,
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-14-2020, 10:21 AM
Antonmb's Avatar
Antonmb Antonmb is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northwest Washington (Mt Baker foothills)
Posts: 7,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
The question is, are these SMPS sending high-source impedance leakage current downstream?

Does Linn even know to measure high-source impedance leakage current?

(it's not obvious how to do this...)


But Stephen, is it relevant if the sound quality is exceptional and noise level inaudible? It’s the end result that matters. Measurements are important, but they never tell the whole story. In the end it’s whether and how they impact the listening experience.
__________________
Tony
"Have you seen the stars tonight?"
________________________________
Main system: Linn Klimax Katalyst DSM; D’Agostino Momentum S250 & HD pre; Rega RP10 w/Rega Aphelion; Boulder 508; Sonus Faber Amati Futura; Shunyata Denali 6000T, Alpha NR & EF PC, Alpha IC & SC; UpTone EtherRegen; Quadraspire Sunoko-Vent T, ISOAcoustics Orea & HRS Damping

2nd system: Luxman SQ-N100, Sonus Faber Minima Amator II, REL T-5, refurbished AR XA w/Nagaoka MP-200 & VPI cabling, Linn Klimax DSM Renew, Shunyata PS8 w/Defender & Viper, Nordost Blue Heaven PC & IC, Shunyata Venom sc, Symposium Svelte Shelves

Workshop: Vintage Yamaha CA-1010 & CT-1010, PSB Imagine Mini, Squeezebox Touch, Schiit BiFrost, AZ & WW cables

Digital Streaming source: SonicTransporter i7 w/Roon, Synology DS420+, English Electric 8switch

Personal audio: Woo WA6, WA7 & WA8; Auralic Aries Mini, Sonore MicroRendu & UltraRendu; Shure SE535, Shure SH1540, Westone ES50 Custom, Sennheiser HD820, MrSpeakers Aeon Flow C; Various Moon Audio dragons

Video: Sony XBR65X850C; Apple TV-4; Vienna Schönberg L/R, Webern center & surrounds; REL T1, T2, & T3; Arcam AVR850; Cambridge Audio 752BD; MIT-EXP SC
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-14-2020, 10:41 PM
Puma Cat's Avatar
Puma Cat Puma Cat is offline
conrad-johnson, baby!


 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 9,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonmb View Post
But Stephen, is it relevant if the sound quality is exceptional and noise level inaudible? It’s the end result that matters. Measurements are important, but they never tell the whole story. In the end it’s whether and how they impact the listening experience.
Reall good points, Tony, and I agree with you. Measurements don't always tell the whole story.

Back in the day, lots of folks thought that transistors amps had "exceptional sound quality" and were superior to tube amps. But wait..why did I find a Dyna ST-70 to be more enjoyable and engaging than an H-K Citation 12?

So, what we thought of as "exceptional sound quality" is, we've found over the last 40years or so of high-end...is continually evolving.

We still have folks that believe that with respect to digital music, that "bits are bits", its just 0s and 1s; there's no way that an Ethernet cable (used to be USB cables, remember?) can impact sound quality. We now know this is to be B.S. And, it's not 0s and 1s in digital music reproduction; its analog voltages. We've found that "perfect sound forever" is simply not true.

The impact of high-source impedance leakage current causes increased noise on the ground plane, increased threshold jitter and timing errors in the flip-flops and PHYs in endpoints and the DAC chips themselves, and in the digital domain, timing errors in the nanosecond range is audible. High-source impedance leakage current are an intrinsic failure mode from SMPS.

For an in-depth white paper on this by John Swenson, who designed these digital chips in his professional career, check out this white paper: https://tinyurl.com/yylwak9b

Quoting John Swenson: "Most all network systems used with audio use switching supplies (SMPS) to power the digital devices, routers, switches, computers, etc. The high-source-impedance leakage current from the SMPS will travel through the network equipment, the Ethernet cables, the end-points, and into the DAC where they will create noise on the ground-plane, and thus jitter in the DAC circuitry. Leakage currents can also cause clock modulation in intermediate devices such as “streamers.”

I'm asking a really simple question: do they know about this failure mode from SMPS and are they mitigating it? Are they even measuring it? Because how to meausure it is not obvious, nor is it easy to do. And, it does have an impact on digital music reproduction.
__________________
First Sound Presence Deluxe 4.0 MkIII-Si Special Edition preamp, Conrad-Johnson LP70S amp, Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion w/ EAR324, Oppo BD-83SE, Sonore OpticalModule with Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 power supply, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN, SOtM UltraNeo with Keces P3 power supply, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet & Alpha USB cables, Schiit Gungnir Multibit Gen 5 USB DAC, Schiit Loki DSD DAC, Mac Mini/Roon, Harbeth 30.2 or Dynaudio Contour S3.4 w/ Esotar 2 tweeters, REL R-305, Shunyata Delta and Venom ICs, Shunyata Delta speaker cables, Shunyata Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Alpha NRv2, Venom NR-V10, and Venom V14D power cords, Shunyata Everest 8000,

Last edited by Puma Cat; 09-14-2020 at 10:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:38 PM
kaarmstrong's Avatar
kaarmstrong kaarmstrong is online now
Senior Member

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Northwest USA
Posts: 191
Default

Jeff Rowland uses SMPS in most of his amplifiers including his flagship. My personal experience is even his entry level amps are quieter than many amps using linear PS. Like many things in this industry, quality materials and implemention is key.
__________________
Speakers - Aerial Acoustic 20T V2 w/ JLAudio F212s (CR-1 xover)
PS Audio BHK 300 Monoblocks. PS Audio BHK Preamp and Esoteric E-03 phono
Digital - Silenzio (NAS) and PS Audio DSD. Analog - VPI Prime Signature w/ Grado Reference 2
Cables - WW Gold IC and WW Plat USB. Power: PS Audio P20 and Cardas Clear Beyond
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-15-2020, 12:58 PM
Antonmb's Avatar
Antonmb Antonmb is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northwest Washington (Mt Baker foothills)
Posts: 7,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post

I'm asking a really simple question: do they know about this failure mode from SMPS and are they mitigating it? Are they even measuring it? Because how to meausure it is not obvious, nor is it easy to do. And, it does have an impact on digital music reproduction.

Stephen, I really don’t have an answer to your question, I don’t know if Linn is measuring leakage current. They have published a fair amount of information on their power supply designs which can be found through an internet search. I’m also sure Linn would respond to the question if asked. Having said that, I’m afraid the technical aspects are a bit beyond my grasp, I only know what I hear and what others have reported hearing - their systems sound great. Whatever they may or may not have done about measuring and addressing leakage current, either they’ve addressed it effectively, or it doesn’t have a meaningful impact in their equipment, or the other advantages they have created with their design offset it.
__________________
Tony
"Have you seen the stars tonight?"
________________________________
Main system: Linn Klimax Katalyst DSM; D’Agostino Momentum S250 & HD pre; Rega RP10 w/Rega Aphelion; Boulder 508; Sonus Faber Amati Futura; Shunyata Denali 6000T, Alpha NR & EF PC, Alpha IC & SC; UpTone EtherRegen; Quadraspire Sunoko-Vent T, ISOAcoustics Orea & HRS Damping

2nd system: Luxman SQ-N100, Sonus Faber Minima Amator II, REL T-5, refurbished AR XA w/Nagaoka MP-200 & VPI cabling, Linn Klimax DSM Renew, Shunyata PS8 w/Defender & Viper, Nordost Blue Heaven PC & IC, Shunyata Venom sc, Symposium Svelte Shelves

Workshop: Vintage Yamaha CA-1010 & CT-1010, PSB Imagine Mini, Squeezebox Touch, Schiit BiFrost, AZ & WW cables

Digital Streaming source: SonicTransporter i7 w/Roon, Synology DS420+, English Electric 8switch

Personal audio: Woo WA6, WA7 & WA8; Auralic Aries Mini, Sonore MicroRendu & UltraRendu; Shure SE535, Shure SH1540, Westone ES50 Custom, Sennheiser HD820, MrSpeakers Aeon Flow C; Various Moon Audio dragons

Video: Sony XBR65X850C; Apple TV-4; Vienna Schönberg L/R, Webern center & surrounds; REL T1, T2, & T3; Arcam AVR850; Cambridge Audio 752BD; MIT-EXP SC
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-15-2020, 02:17 PM
Puma Cat's Avatar
Puma Cat Puma Cat is offline
conrad-johnson, baby!


 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 9,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonmb View Post
Stephen, I really don’t have an answer to your question, I don’t know if Linn is measuring leakage current. They have published a fair amount of information on their power supply designs which can be found through an internet search. I’m also sure Linn would respond to the question if asked. Having said that, I’m afraid the technical aspects are a bit beyond my grasp, I only know what I hear and what others have reported hearing - their systems sound great. Whatever they may or may not have done about measuring and addressing leakage current, either they’ve addressed it effectively, or it doesn’t have a meaningful impact in their equipment, or the other advantages they have created with their design offset it.
All really good points, Tony. I fully acknowledge that this is pretty darn complex stuff; I had a to spend a lot of time studying and learning about it when I had to write the EtherREGEN review for TAS. It's...complicated. It took me a lot of reading and re-reading to get my head 'round it as I am not a digital signals processing engineer. I spent a lot time reading about what a flip-flop is, and how it can impact audio performance.

My personal view is, that with many "noise components", we often don't know they are there until they are gone. Just look at the work that Caelin and Shunyata have done over the last 20+ years to completely change and inform everyone's understanding about the impact of noise on our audio systems.

The reason I'm asking about (more like harping on) high-source leakage impedance current is that 1) it was only discovered in Oct. 2017 by John Swenson and 2) John had to develop bespoke, very specialized, test equipment, even to measure it. It's clear from the work John and Uptone have done with the EtherREGEN that it's impact on audio quality is significant.

And, I'm just asking EvaAnna, Bruno and Linn...do they even know about it? If not, they should, and, IMHO, they should be measuring it.
__________________
First Sound Presence Deluxe 4.0 MkIII-Si Special Edition preamp, Conrad-Johnson LP70S amp, Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion w/ EAR324, Oppo BD-83SE, Sonore OpticalModule with Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 power supply, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN, SOtM UltraNeo with Keces P3 power supply, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet & Alpha USB cables, Schiit Gungnir Multibit Gen 5 USB DAC, Schiit Loki DSD DAC, Mac Mini/Roon, Harbeth 30.2 or Dynaudio Contour S3.4 w/ Esotar 2 tweeters, REL R-305, Shunyata Delta and Venom ICs, Shunyata Delta speaker cables, Shunyata Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Alpha NRv2, Venom NR-V10, and Venom V14D power cords, Shunyata Everest 8000,
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:04 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2019 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Accuphase
Accuphase