REPRISE: Competitor to the MR88 (with HD)?
 

The original thread,

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=29983

has gotten a bit long in the tooth. I'm a new member who has been avidly browsing this outstanding forum for a week or more. I have some new information and a similar question and would like an update, so I thought it worth starting a new thread for 2019.

I have a related problem to Weirdcuba's in the original thread. I want an excellent FM tuner that can reject the noise I'm currently getting in my ancient Yamaha CT-800 on otherwise excellent stations that have HD channels (apparently because the tuner, designed way before HD, cannot filter out the HD sidebands). If I could get my hands on a McIntosh MR88 (preferably used and significantly below $4000!), I'd probably buy it and be happy. I've beaten the bushes, however, and come up dry.

Main Question: Are there modern audiophile tuners out there that can eliminate HD "self noise" on analog and also receive the HD channel(s) causing that noise? To satisfy, such a tuner would have to both provide excellent sound and good selectivity and also allow a choice whether to listen to the analog or the HD channel on any given station. (It's clear from browsing this forum that there are several -- perhaps many -- pre-HD tuners that will do the former, and that could be a fallback if I cannot find one that will do both.)

New Information:

1) I followed up on Weirdcuba's report that Magnum Dynalab was working on something 3 years ago. Once again they are saying that they have a tuner in the works, to be released this spring, that will do all of this for a price below $2000. It's not clear where they are getting the HD decoder chips now that HD Radio (or whoever owns the IP this year) has discontinued all but automotive chips -- Silabs perhaps? -- but perhaps they will succeed. I'm on their mailing list for developments, but no details are currently available. Does anyone have any more insight into this option?

2) Maks mentioned on the old thread that DaySequerra had an entry in the field at that time. I followed up on this as well and learned that they are currently offering their M4.2Si for around $1400 (I think -- no quotes yet), which they claim does it all. Mike Pappas (VP for Business Development) tells me that they developed expertise using Texas Instruments chips for monitor radios to quality-control HD broadcasts around the country, and that their new model is based on these chips. Their specs are very scant, however. All I know is that their (now discontinued but probably related) M4 was reviewed very well in 2013. Does anyone have experience with this new tuner?

Are there other models currently in production (or available used) that I should look at besides the MR88? Any suggestions gratefully accepted. -- Clark2

Clark2... Welcome to AA! :wave:

I think there are only about 3 choices for new HD tuners.
The Day Sequerra you mention, the T&A multiplayer sacd/cd with an included HD tuner (and their new DAC), and the Sangean on Amazon.

The MR88 is out of production as far as I know. I had one and can't say I loved it. It seemed bright in my system. Reception was very good, however. Now I use the built in HD tuner in my Marantz 8802A processor and I think it's great. They don't put HD tuners in their latest processors for 2018/19, though - only the last generation.

New, I'd try the Day Sequerra. Used, an MR88 (maybe you'll have better luck than I did) or the old Rotel model that was an HD tuner.

Thanks very much for the quick reply! I'll check into the Rotel. Do you recall the model?

Interesting you mention the Sangean. I suppose you mean the HDT-20? I've seen little to suggest that it rises to audiophile standards on either analog FM or HD, nor does it appear to give the user control over which is fed to the audio outputs. Have you used it? How is the sound quality? -- Clark2

Have you thought about investing in a good streaming device as opposed to torturing yourself with fm programming?

Magnum Dynalab gave up on the HD tuner. It was “under development” for a long time and now I don’t think they even say that. Their other tuners though are awesome in my experience. That said, it’s a declining medium for sure, so a streamer may be a more solid bet.

I have not, in part because I'm a dinosaur, and in part because I came at this in the process of updating my ancient stereo system, which includes a tuner, of course. I'm not averse to streaming, just prejudiced that the source quality available is not up to audiophile standards. (I find Sirius/XM radio sound unacceptable, though I use it in the car.) I'm willing to be disillusioned...

I have two excellent FM classical-music stations in my area, WETA in DC and WGBH in Baltimore. The former has two HD channels, and I mentioned the effect that seems to have on my ancient tuner. The latter is 32 miles away (I don't think it has HD channels yet), and I'm in the process of installing a high-gain antenna in my attic in hopes of pulling it in with acceptable S/N.

I have good Wi-Fi in the house of course, but in addition to casual listening (for which those FM stations are great), I often listen critically to classical music (or blues or folk or bluegrass...), either over my ancient B&O Beovox M70 speakers or through my equally ancient Stax SR-5 "ear speakers." CDs are my preferred source material for critical listening (had to replace the CD player too), but I'd like to be able to enjoy those FM stations as well... -- Clark2

I talked to Jim Richards, President of Magnum Dynalab, earlier this week, and he told me they were trying again with the goal of bringing out the MD-1FM DAB/DAB+ this spring. I think they were set back (as was McIntosh) by the withdrawal from the market of HD's audiophile chips but have found a work-around. I'm keeping my fingers crossed... -- Clark2

I hope this morning's reply to Macuser (once it gets through moderation) will clarify where I'm coming from. One key question was probably obscured by the details in my OP:

Is FM HD radio actually an audiophile medium (given quality source material)?

Clearly HD can provide lower noise than analog FM, but I've heard it said that HD does not sound as good as analog FM on a high-quality tuner. (1) I've never heard HD on an excellent home stereo system, only on my car radio, and (2) sufficiently good HD tuners may not be currently available to exploit its full potential. -- Clark2

As HD is pretty much anything but high fidelity, add any of the Sangean models with RCA outs to your system and have HD. You could then focus on a high quality FM tuner (with AM, if wanted) of which there are several new and many vintage available. I've gone the refurbished (recapped & aligned) vintage route, but may yet go for an Accuphase T-1100.

Clark2 - as you posted while I was typing, to answer your latest, go thru the old posts on the fmtuners@yahoogroups.com forum and read about the fidelity of HD radio and its implementation. It turned out to be nothing more than a marketing driven solution to a non-existent problem. Any number of the threads/posts on same are from broadcast engineers who were instrumental in the installation of the equipment for HD broadcasting and the problems with same. HD does not mean 'high definition' in the case of HD radio. It does not have the 'CD quality' sound that was initially stated and is nowhere near same. It is well accepted that a well done FM broadcast has considerably better fidelity than HD radio. That said, HD broadcasts are like FM broadcasts. Unless the engineer setting up and running the equipment does a good job its fidelity won't be as good as is possible (though never up to a good FM broadcast). I use HD only to be able to listen to jazz from WRTI during the day when their FM broadcast is classical and they are playing something that does not interest me.

I've never heard the Sangean but I believe it has a digital output which is bonus. The Rotel model is the RT-1084 and is probably the most serious audiophile tuner with HD capability outside of the MR88. Checking out the RT-1084 is on my list, one of these days. They made it in both black and silver.

FWIW I listen to my MR88 with the HD auto-blend mode on and I'm happy w/the sound. DXing ability is excellent as well. For me it'd come down to how long you're willing to wait, MR88s sometimes pop up in the market here and AC seems to get them in from time to time. There is also a tuned up MR74 in the market, I have a MR74 and with the selectivity and filters makes a heck of a DXer and is said to be the best analog Mc tuner.

I tried an hd tuner prior to my current one (MD108T SE) and don’t care for the sq at all. I had the little Sony digital tuner that is no longer available new, but can be had for a few hundred bucks used. It was fine, but the signal was just not what I wanted.

Like you, I have a couple very good local options and the analog signal is awesome. Call Jim Richards back and get a used MD and I think you’ll be more than pleased.

Thanks, all, for the helpful (if somewhat disappointing) input. I'll have to digest it all... -- Clark2

Clark,
If I read your original post correctly you asked two separate questions.

The first was about eliminating HD self noise. There are large number of tuners that have post detection filtering. For example the MR 78 and MR 80 tuners have excellent post detection filters. The MR 80 is arguably the best performing tuner McIntosh ever made.

The second question was about tuners that also decode HD. Fewer choices. Mostly car radios now.

The third question was, is HD an audiophile medium?

The answer? Absolutely not! It is digitized at low bitrates and sounds terrible, similar to XM radio, sometimes worse. It is a sham.

The best option is to buy a great analog tuner with excellent post detection filtering and enjoy!

Ditto. Find a used magnum dynalab, accuphase or McIntosh or equivalent and enjoy. If you have great stations, it’s quite cheap and quite enjoyable and you’ll never think about hd again.

I've never listened to the pure HD signal, but the comment that it's similar to XM has me wondering. I might have to try my MR88 in true analog mode vs blend.

In the Orlando area, the only HD stations that even approach the awfulness of satellite radio can be the HD2 and HD3 stations of some broadcasters. The main stations are mostly crystal clear and great quality. My NPR and it’s HD2 classical and the affiliates jazz station that broadcasts in HD sound fantastic.

That's been my experience as well, the sub-channels are obviously low bitrate but I notice a slight improvement in quality once HD locks in on a main channel.

You’re lucky.
HD radio has lots of options that can be configured by the station manager. The FM hybrid digital/analog mode offers up to 150 kbit/s of lossy data. The pure digital modes use up to 300 kbit/s bitrate. So basically equivalent to 320 kbp/s mp3.

I notice that nobody is mentioning DaySequerra in their suggestions of good tuners. Any opinions on their line in comparison to magnum dynalab, accuphase, McIntosh, etc? Would the M4.2Si, for example, make a satisfying receiver of analog FM (as well as allowing me to try out HD)? -- Clark2

IMHO... When it comes to Tuners, nothing and I mean nothing comes close to the Accuphase T-1200.

I own two of them, they are outrageously good!

+1

Also what I forgot to say is that I have never heard HD1 sound better than the analog carrier when compared side by side with no blend.

At $9500 (I saw somewhere online), too rich for my budget.
I guess whatever I end up with is likely to be used/reconditioned, unless the DaySequerra M4.2Si at $1100 new looks good enough. I still haven't found a review of this one...
I suppose the Magnum Dynalab MD90 at $2200 new might also be an option; but to audition it, the nearest dealer is a few hours' drive away. (I'm waiting to hear from Jim Richards about used options, as suggested by Weirdcuba...) -- Clark2

Several sub-topics in this post -- it's gotten rather long I'm afraid:

1) In direct response to Weirdcuba, I haven't heard back from Richards yet; but it appears I can afford a new MD 90T, which has pretty impressive specs. Is it really worth looking at the fancier models, especially given that my amp. lacks balanced inputs?

2) I'm still dithering about the DaySequerra M4.2Si though. The audio quality is the big unknown, but there doesn't seem to be a practical way to audition it as the local dealer doesn't have one. Surprisingly, no audiophile appears to have reviewed it (designed primarily as a signal-quality monitor for broadcast engineers), and nobody on this forum seems to have tried it. (Yes???) It's much less expensive than the MDs, and it may have a better chance of pulling in the station I most want (although there's another good one that will be fairly easy to quiet). A side benefit is being able to experiment with HD, although that's not the main motivation.

3) Here's the reception problem I'm confronting: WBJC is a superb classical station in the NW suburbs of Baltimore, MD. I'm about 31 mi SSW of their transmitter in the NW suburbs of Washington, DC (not a major problem in itself) but also slightly behind a hill. Mike Pappas (DaySequerrra) ran his fancy reception analysis for me -- he's a really helpful guy! -- which shows a received signal level of -53 dBm, but also "1Edge path" (apparently means not line-of-sight).

4) My current step-wise plan of attack is as follows:

4A) I have already installed a 4-element yagi in my un-insulated attic. (An outdoor mast is not an option here.) Pointing it toward vs. away from WBJC does show a significant increase on the signal-level meter of the ancient Yamaha CT-800, but not enough to quiet the noise sufficiently, even in mono. (My car radio parked on the street about 30 ft below the antenna gets the signal fine.)

4B) I've ordered an MD-205 and plan to try inserting it between the antenna and the Yamaha. If that gets me a usable signal, I'm pretty sure it's worth buying a new tuner for this station. If not, maybe I have to stream...

4C) If (B) works out, buy either the DaySequerra or the best MD that I can afford and hope for the best.

Does this make sense? Any suggestions or modifications? -- Clark2

Another option would be to stream the station you're after. Surely they must have that option. That would save hunting down a super tuner and running cables for an antenna in the attic.

Clark,
Your current reception situation is not terribly difficult. -53 dBm 1Edge is actually a pretty strong signal. For example my favorite classical station is KSJN in Minneapolis and it comes in at around -75 dBm 2edge and it is full quieting in stereo on my MR-80 99% of the time. We live 80 miles away from the transmitter.

So if your current tuner is having trouble, there could be a strong adjacent channel or co channel signal. It will be worth figuring this out before dropping big bucks on a tuner.

To check, go to fmfool.com and follow the instructions on the site. It will tell you the received signal strength and if there are any adjacent or co-channel stations.

If there are adjacent channel stations you can point your yagi so they come in off the side of the antenna where attenuation is the greatest. If there are co-channel stations you can do the same but IMO you are pretty much out of luck.

This will also inform your tuner purchase - if there are no strong adjacent channel stations you have a wide choice of tuners. If there are strong adjacents, you'll need a selective tuner like the McIntosh MR 80.

Hope this helps,
Tom

P.S. I haven't listened to the current crop of Day-Sequerra tuners - the FM reference is outstanding but it has been a few years since I heard it.

The more distant classical station does not appear to stream directly (I have a question in to them). There are some of third-party services that seem to do it for them with unknown quality.

The stronger classical station does its own streaming, offering streams for "Windows Media, MP3, and iTunes." Again the quality is unknown to me, without a good way to input it to my amplifier, but I have a question in to them too. These options don't sound very encouraging to the audiophile though.

Maybe you were trying to tell me in a PM that I should be able to connect my smartphone to the amp. somehow? It's a new Yamaha A-S501 that has a either optical or RCA digital inputs, but the DAC is not spec'd. I didn't shell out for the A-S701 -- DAC also not spec'd -- because at the time I didn't expect to use digital inputs. -- Clark2

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll see if the MD 205 helps me... -- Clark2

The 205 is a good first step. I have one and it helps with two channels on the edge. Then!, get an md 90and you’ll love it.

At the risk of opening a can of worms here, I'll report results of a little Web research (you know the old saw...). The upshot seems to be that the HD codec (HDC) is far superior to MP3 (per bit rate) and makes better use of psychoacoustic principles (recall Ray Dolby's old work on tape recording) to preserve the subjectively important aspects of many sounds at reduced bit rate.

If interested, take a look at the two PDFs attached. (I found these readily with a Google search on "psychoacoustics.") One is a brief article that (interestingly, I thought) outlines some of the techniques behind modern, "perceptually accurate" codecs. The longer is a chapter from a book (I admit I haven't read this yet -- tonight...) that introduces psychoacoustics.

I'm not saying that any of this makes HD FM radio OK -- I still haven't heard it on an audiophile system! -- just that it shouldn't be written off with bit-rate comparisons alone. -- Clark2

Well, I read the book chapter last night and found it somewhat disappointing. Although it summarizes good information about the functioning of the ear, the "threshold in quiet" and, "masking," it doesn't go into the most interesting aspect of the HDC scheme (actually the SBR method discussed in the technical paper), which I take to be "guided reconstruction" of the deleted high frequency information. (I had read somewhere that the auditory system is not particularly sensitive the precise frequency content of the highs, but they need to be there to sound realistic.) I'll dig more and post anything relevant that I find... -- Clark2

Considering the number of folks on the FM Tuner forum who have tried and no longer listen to HD (including me), the 'psychoacoustics' of broadcast HD must be mostly miss on the hit or miss basis.

I tried HD and it didn’t come close to the traditional signal for me

I'm going to keep digging anyhow, now that I'm both curious and interested. Will report anything really enlightening. After learning more about HD, I'd like to listen for the artifacts that we all know are there...

REPRISE: Competitor to the MR88 (with HD)?
 

I realize that you called yourself a dinosaur earlier, but now that you are "curious" you should stop beating a dead horse (HD, FM) and explore streaming as several folks have suggested. You can get high definition sound via streaming!

Or better yet, give a 'known good' tuner a try for the best sound (assuming your station broadcasts a good FM signal).

Thanks for nudging me that way here and on the other thread. I did pick up a Bluesound Note 2 Tuesday, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I still want to get FM working well though... -- Clark2

Absolutely! I hope it works for you!
Here is an internet station that you might enjoy:

Classical Music - KDFC San Francisco:
https://tunein.com/radio/KDFC-903-s35953/