Smaller sub recommendation
 

I’m considering purchasing two Rel S510 to add to my B&W 803D3 while they are on sale for Christmas. :D But I’m wondering, are there better subs available for my situation? The biggest limitation is width and depth size. The S510s (16Wx16Hx18.25D) are the largest I have room for so nothing larger. I’d prefer a sub with a 10” woofer (I’m thinking 8” too small for mains) and pricing under $3k each. My considerations so far are Rel and B&W. Any suggestions?

I don’t think anybody does small subs better than REL, the S series are great subs.

Oh, yeah, there is a great alternative now...the KEF KC62. It's getting RAVE reviews everywhere. And, really small.

A friend in another forum has had about half a dozen subs from different mfrs (e.g. Rel, KEF Cube, KEF R400, Elac, 2x Rythmik, etc.) and he says the KEF KC62 is better than any of them.

And..it's small. Less than a foot square, something like 10" And...$1499/each.

Check out Darko's review here: https://youtu.be/Y2Lc8oOinOY

The thing is...these are excellent subs, and...they are small. Sounds perfect for your requirements.

Thanks Stephen I did see Darko’s review. In fact he just gave it one of his “Products of 2021” award. I may have to take a more serious look at it.

I would, if I were you. If I had a spare $1500 bucks to spend on some gear, I would be giving it some serious consideration. And...I have a REL R-305 here that is very nicely integrated.

But, as I'm now a retired guy, my "discretionary spend" for audio gear lately has been going to improving the acoustics of my listening space even further (based on John's excellent V/Coustics vid recently, as well). Just ordered some additional GIK panels and 4 ceiling diffractors.

Another manufacturer I see mentioned a lot is JLAudio. How does say a f110 compare to the Rel? How they integrate with my main speakers is first and foremost after size of course.

Yeah, can't comment on anything I have not heard. I trust Darko's reviews.

When I integrated my REL, I did a DOE (Design of Experiments). I like having a....transfer function and being able to characterize control factor interactions with statistical rigor.

The interactions are shown in the Interaction Profiles at bottom left.

https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_c...reen%20cap.jpg

Response surface at a 155 Hz node, showing the interaction between Gain and Crossover...
https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_c...ponse%20II.jpg

The Power of DOE compels you...:p

I’m not going to pretend I understand all of that :no: but I am an engineer so I will figure it out. Just not tonight.

Look at the Rythmik F12SE at $1189 and you get a 10% discount for multiples. It's 15 3/4 x 15 3/4 x 17. I also know the "friend" Puma is talking about for a few years and I personally take those pronouncements with a grain of salt. I own two pair of F-12's and have previously owned subs from HSU, SVS, Vandersteen, ACI and RSL. The Rythmik's are the best I've used.

:lmao:

If you'd like to know more, Doug, ping me some time and I can talk you through it.
:thumbsup:


Meantime, here's an intro to DOE by JMP (these guys rock, I used to teach DOE with JMP...)

https://www.jmp.com/en_us/events/get...intro-kit.html

Both REL and B&W excellent, of course. Owning subs from both, I would go with B&W in a heartbeat, to pair with your 803s. The B&W subwoofer app makes seamless integration with B&W mains (almost) mindless and instantaneous. Less than 5 minutes to start, then you can tweak the volume over the first day or two. The REL process is much more difficult and stress-inducing to get it just right. You might want to read both owners' manuals to get a sense of the difference

Thanks everyone for your input. After some consideration of individual experiences here I went to my local dealer yesterday. I think I’m going to order two JL f110s for my system. The bigger question is how to integrate it into a 2channel AND 5.2 system while still using the MEN220. It’s the dealers opinion to best accomplish this is to switch the cables when listening between music and HT. He mentioned the CR-1 but that would mean taking the MEN220 out of the system. I don’t want to do that at this point. Maybe an input switch box like this one?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D7P7366...V6YV1M2P074CWH

Has anyone dealt with this situation?

Hi Doug,

I can't help with the box, but the suspense is killing me--spill the tea! The JL sub looks terrific, were you able to compare sound to the other finalists? Have you tried the MEN220 yet? Have you thought about how the MEN220 might interact with the JL DARO? One of my theories on why I did not keep the MEN220 is that my sub's DSP already provided a large amount of room correction.

Cheers

If you want a quality switch check out Goldpoint. https://goldpt.com/
Don't think you'll find anything on Amazon that is comparable.

Thanks Glenn but I if I understand these correctly they are passive pre-amps (switch and volume control) and are configured as XLR or rca only. I need both XLR (coming from c2700) and RCA (coming from 7012 av receiver) inputs and no volume control. I’m sure they are better quality and I could make my own using these components but I’m not at that point yet. The device I mentioned above did measure well. Here is a link to it.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...62/post-312129
I hope this is allowed here. If not let me know and I’ll take the link down.

Hi Peter. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I was NOT able to do a side by side comparison. :sigh: In fact, I wasn’t even able to hear the RELs. I did listen to the B&W and JL Audio but not at the same time nor on similar systems so I can’t comment on either, other than to say I liked them both. After talking to a couple individuals (Ivan being one of them ….. thanks Ivan) I ordered two f110v2 yesterday.

Now the dropping of the second hammer. The MEN220 and DARO do not play nice together. At least that is what I’m told by my dealer. I’m going to research that myself. The choice is use the CR-1 or men220 but not both. I’m not sure why I can’t use the DARO first than use the men220 calibration. Either way I’m hoping the JL’s will be easier to calibrate because of the line level inputs rather than REL’s speaker level inputs.

Now the third hammer. If I don’t use the CR-1 I will need a switch box or manually switch the cables out when listening between music and movies. I’m not sure how I feel about that.

I never thought adding a pair of subs to my system would be soooo difficult. Does everyone face these choices or am I doing something wrong.

Doug - Goldpoint makes switchboxes as well as passive preamps. They will build most any configuration you ask for.

Good to know. I think a call is in order. Thanks.

I had similar issue. I chose the CR-1 for my subs and glad I did. Integration with mains subs was much easier and having high pass to main speakers is a great way to blend them. I am not using the DARO on my subs, not needed with my treated room.

I have a KEF KC62 in my second system and I am very very impressed at the sound! You really should go give it a listen...

Michael

That was similar to my situation also but with smaller mains. The s/812 were just a tad too big got a pair of s/510.

Although I’m not sure how well this all works. 803d3 spec at 19hz -3db. S/510 at 20Hz -6db. Your chain is all analog, you’ll be using the high level input from the amps, regardless how low you tune the rel crossover, there will be lots of low bass overlap. Not sure much this will improve your outfit, would be interesting to hear from others with a similar situation. Rel recommends a s/810 But I’d look at a G1 for your speakers, which you don’t have the space for…

Stephen, I'm thinking about ceiling diffractors also. What ceiling diffractors did you order? GIK? Thanks, Steve.

Now that some time has passed and rereading this thread I felt I should update what ended up happening. I did NOT use a switch box (passive preamp) because I didn’t need one. After talking with Ryan here and information from a JL Audio tech it was possible to have both connections running into the sub at the same time. One connection coming from the AV receiver and the other from the men220. Next JL Audio has well written instructions on how to setup and integrate into main speakers while considering surround sound systems. Everything worked out well in the end.

Now I think I’m going to upset the apple cart one more time. :D But more about that later. I’ll give you a one word hint …….. “nearfield subs” ok two :scratch2: :yes: