New Kuzma 14 inch 4Point
 

Any of the vinyl lovers heard Franc's latest masterpiece? How long is too long (I am referring to tonearms of course)?

4Point 14 inch- New from July 2015 - Kuzma Professional Turntables, Tonearms and Accessories

How about 14 inch arms in general? Anyone ever try one???

I was reading about these arms and they are very interesting.
I think it's worth clarifying that this 14 inch arm is meant to work where one would normally use a 12 inch arm and that their 11 inch arm where one would use a 9 inch arm. I think the design and features of this arm are well thought out. Outstanding reviews, too.

Where did you find a review?

I still presume all of the benefits of a lower tracking error are realized in the 14" compared to a 12" even though it was designed for a 12 inch position?

Their website has a link to M. Fremer's review of the shorter version from a few years ago. And I read another review in Hi-Fi + I think.
I believe I got the links from their website.

Yes, I have read all about the shorter arm. The Kuzma 11" 4Point is outstanding. I look forward to something on the new 14".

I like Avid's argument on the matter and why they use 9" arms.

Quote from their FAQ

The change in the percent distortion is indeed 21% lower with the 12 inch. Or said differently the percent distortion in the 9 inch is 27% higher than a 12 inch. It's math and while the Avid statement is correct it is misleading relative to the goal of reducing the base level of distortion present in the 9 inch arm. The rest of their arguments are about design and execution of the tone arm itself relative to accuracy/flexibility in set-up to get it right, material density and so on. This capability has come a long way from initial designs and I think failure to see these benefits is leaving marginal SQ on the table (pardon the pun).

Checking again to see if anyone has heard more about the Kuzma 14 inch arm???????

Trying again to see if anyone has heard anything about the new 14 inch Kuzma??

Not really since Munich. Is it shipping yet?

I suggest sending a note to Roy Gregory at The Audio Beat. You've read his review; he knows the 11" version inside out and follows the 'arm and Kuzma doings closely. Scott Markwell with Elite Audio Video Distribution is the US distributor.

"The 4POINT 14 differs from standard 4Point due almost 3 inches longer tube. But this requires different mounting distance and different headshell with different offset angle. It requires 12 inch mounting position on turntable."

"Technical data:
Mass: 2150 gr
Effective length : 353 mm ( 14 inch)
Mounting distance: 291 mm ( 12 inch )
Offset angle: 15.35 degrees
Distance from spindle to horizontal bearing: 342 mm
Effective mass: 19 g
VTA adjustment: yes
Azimuth adjustment: yes
Bias adjustment: yes
Vertical damping: yes
Horizontal damping: yes
Detachable headshell: yes ( one extra supplied)
Cables: silver
Arm mount: Kuzma cut
Optional: extra headshells, headshell containers, different wiring option"

I got an 11" yesterday. If you find out more about the 14", appreciate a follow up to this thread.

Congrats on the 11". Fantastic tonearm. If I can get anything on the 14" performance I will post for sure. Thanks,

I believe the Kuzma 14 inch was released around July 15th. In any event I ordered one and installed it on my Dr. Feickert Firebird back in mid October. It is built very well and the finish is identical to the 11inch 4 point. When I first unpacked it looked like a javelin, it's big!
However, having lived with it for two months I could not be happier; the sound is absolutely spectacular.

Thanks for the info! May I ask what you compared it to?

I forgot to start with CONGRATULATIONS!

Also, If you had the occasion to compare it to the 11" 4 Point can you describe how it differs?

Was it more finicky in set-up?

jmwick... Welcome to AA! :wave:

I did not have the opportunity to compare it to the 11 inch other than to read and re-read all of the reviews of the 11 inch, particularly Fremer's. Of note is the fact that i was also looking for a new turntable at the time.
Once I decided on the Feickert Firebird, I observed that in many of the shows Feickert was displaying his tables with the Kuzma. That was pretty much it.
In terms of the set up, I was assisted or should I say I assisted a friend who works on turntables at a local high-end dealer. What made the set-up finicky was the fact that Smartractor positioning arm was not long enough to reach the pivoting point of the tone arm. However, once we figured that out the set up was pretty easy. A nice feature is that the azimuth adjustment is located at the rear of the tone arm tube as opposed to headshell.
I did consider other arms and tables, but this is where I ended up.
My previous set-up was a Sota Star Sapphire with an SME V.

Masterlu, thank you for the welcome.

Thanks. The 14 inch has my attention.

What table would you put it on?

A new Acoustic Signature Ascona mkii. The 11 inch 4 Point works great with the Ascona mki. I am thinking about two of them to accurately a/b different cartridges.

That would be a superb setup. Sounds like you've found your 'table if you're going to the mkii.

Matching cartridges to the 4Point, have you found it prefers cartridges that tend toward lower dynamic compliance, say 12x10 to the minus 6 cm/dyne and lower?

I do not own the 4 Point but am basing my views on the Jonathan Valin review of the Ascona mki and my understanding that that review led to a large number of people matching the 4 Point to the Ascona with great success.

Quote"Average distortion on 9" arms is 0.85%, whilst 12" arms are 0.67%. Some trying to impress will say this is 20% lower distortion, however this is incorrect as in real terms its only 0.18% lower."

Obviously, this company uses an alternative form of Mathematics not recognised in the real world. How could you trust a company whose engineers, designers & marketing staff cannot calculate % changes correctly?

Embarrassing.

Yep. The level of existing distortion (which happens to have percentage as its defined unit) is in fact reduced by 20 percent! That's just simple math.

The fact that distortion itself is measured as a percentage is not the point whatsoever.

I suspect Paul has this information but for others following this thread, the MSRP for the 4Point 14" is $8995.00. No reason to think the 14" 4Point is different from the 11" model but with lower tracking distortion.

"Notes
This arm is a NEW version of Kuzma's 4Point design (single wire set only: no RCA Box), one with a 14 inch arm tube, intended for installation on turntables that are set up for 12" arms already. It is otherwise identical to the standard 4Point: a VTA tower similar to the Airline, one that features damping in both the vertical and horizontal planes, as well as a detachable head shell (the electrical connections never break...) that allows easy changing of cartridges. Terminated with a 1.5M length of hard-wired Crystal Cable silver-wired cables with Eichmann Silver Bullet RCA plugs. May be custom-ordered in XLR termination. "

http://themusic.com/gear/covers/big/559da1b3a0688.jpeg

0.18% is absolute, whereas 20% (approximately) is relative.

Mathematics and physics seem on occasion to be different on the island called UK. :D
Anyway I Love my Airline :thumbsup:
4 point versus Airline is a close call soundwise, but once you get used to tangential there's no way back. I dare say the Airline is not a 'better' sounding arm, it misses something, which you are not aware of with 4point until direct comparising with the Airline.
Ive set up many 4points at friends, the Airline asks for more commitment in setup and maintenance on the air compressor. I would advise 4point in any situation. The 14" is a very interesting move, maybe it get's closer to the Airline, may be very well the sole intention.. :scratch2:

Not all is about geomtry, What about mass inertia of this big 4p? Maybe it hass poorer tracking abilities than 11", no as fast...

Yes Poj, I wonder about these issues as well. Speed is a critical parameter in the design of my system.

Pojuojuo you raise an interesting question. Those issues may be possible. Without more information I don't think we can know. All the more reason to have a speed accurate and stable 'table so as not to impact the arm it is driving. VTF should be within the same margins. More anti-skate? Both models share the same high quality bearings. Think lower compliance cartridges.

The effective mass of the 4Point 14" 'arm is 19g, or 5g greater than the effective mass of the 11" model. My limited understanding finds effective mass as a function of the moment of inertia on each side of the pivot. I think you'd need to know where the dimensions on the longer arm changed to dig deeper.

Versus idle speculation, there's no reason to think other than FK knows how to build the arm to the same (or better) level of performance found in the 11" 4Point. To build it in such a way that neither does it have tracking issues nor is inherently "slower" (whatever that means.) Send him an e-mail; he's very responsive to questions.

To me with respect to an arm it would refer to the uninhibited ability to play life-like transients.....think of the marginal effects of uni-pivot versus gimbal.

Okay, thanks Paul - maybe you can help me understand better. I have limited experience with uni-pivots so I'm not quite catching the analogy.

I'm trying to think through how a longer, heavier arm could adversely impact a cartridge's ability to render transients.

If the claim is that the longer, heavier (L/H) arm does not address resonance as effectively as the shorter lighter arm, I kinda understand how energy not drained or energy fed back into the cartridge motor might smear the signal or otherwise time distort it, such that the transient appears 'rounded' or otherwise less articulate.

If the 'arm was gimbaled (bearings), I could imagine a claim that a L/H 'arm caused bearing chatter or if it was a uni-pivot that a L/H 'arm caused less stability in the arm, with the conclusion in either case that the cartridge was some how less stable in the groove. But the 4Point design seems inherently to avoid those types of issues or at least be less susceptible to them.

Rather than rattle on further about what I cannot imagine, I'll stop while noting that I've not heard such a claim made against the 12" version of a 9" or 10" 'arms such as the Tri-Planar or SME V. What am I missing? TIA.

As 4point owner I don't miss more lenght in my tonearm. LP inside distortions are not critical and imho in the new 14" arm there are two problems: compliance compatibility (better for low compliance cartridges but worst in general) and inertias (less microdinamic attacks and dirty sound)

Another different point is the new use of different kind of phono cables. Crystal, Cardas, Audio Note, Nordost... It's really interesting.

Anyway I have no doubts about Franc knowledgement, when I saw this new tonearm at last Munich MOC show I talked with him and he was very proud of the design.

14" 4Point Review
 

Roy Gregory has reviewed the Kuzma 14" 4Point and you can find that here.

"...once you hear the 4POINT 14, it’s awfully hard to go back."

Indeed Typical Roy G review--and a positive one to boot

Maybe some time with the proof reader for couple of typo's

D

Thank you very much. I think I am going to do it.

Best of luck. Of course we'll want commentary and pictures. :->

It's good to have all requisite setup tools on hand prior to buying a new 'arm; that assures me that I can actually do a proper job.

Thus, it was interesting to read Roy's observations about setting the pivot-to-spindle distance (342mm) of the 14" 4P and the fact his SMARTractor P2S measurement tool did not read that far.

That led me to check. The P2S beam on my UNI-Pro protractor (big brother to SMARTractor) only went to 314mm. Apparently Dietrich Brakemeier is making a longer beam for the SMARTractor, so for owners of that tool, a solution may be coming. However the beam on the original (not the current model) Feickert Protractor goes out to 430mm. Perhaps the latest Feickert does so as well.

If the 14" 4P is like the 11" model, it comes with its own (rather unique) P2S measuring device along with a stiff paper protractor for fixing the overhang, etc. I used neither. The in-box P2S tool, imo, was less exact than taking a numerical measurement. While that distance is nominally critical, it is especially so with the 4P because small changes in its bearing assembly distance (the center of which is the 'pivot point') affect the distance by which the arm is able to clear the arm holder. There needs to be enough clearance for the stylus to land on the lead-in groove of records. Hard to picture, but obvious when making the actual setting.

Audio: it's always something. :)