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Stillpoints....Audio crack?
My Journey
It's safe to say I've become a big believer in Isolation tweaks, and most notably of Stillpoint products, in a relatively short period of time. I made my first Stillpoints purchase in late 2019, that purchase being two sets of Ultra-minis that I installed under my McIntosh MCD1000 CD transport, and under my McIntosh MDA1000 DAC. I was very impressed with the improvements they made with my CD's (or with any source connected to my MDA1000). Since then, I've wanted to deploy more of the devices in my main system. When I purchased my VPI Prime signature turntable, I purchased an LP1 VII record weight with it. To be honest, I can't draw any comparisons between it and the very attractive VPI-provided weight, because I've always just used the Stillpoints weight since I bought the table. The next step I wanted to take in my Stillpoints journey was to deploy Ultra SS's under my McIntosh MC501 amplifiers (of which I have three). The problem with this was, I did not have enough vertical clearance to install them under the amps and still keep my amp platforms in place. For this reason as well as others, I was eventually motivated to build a new electronics platform (which my left and right amps reside under) with additional clearance that would allow room for the Ultra SS's under the amps as well as some less expensive but attractive isolators under the platforms. Those of you following my projects will recall this effort, completed around last Thanksgiving. It was a significant effort, but well worth the trouble to "raise the bridge" to accommodate the devices. A much smoother, more nuanced presentation was immediately apparent from the installation. I was thoroughly impressed. For those unfamiliar with that project, here's a link. https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=50593 Naturally, I was really at this point compelled to somehow deploy another set of Ultra SS's under Amp #3, which powers my JBL B460 subwoofer. The amps are connected in the system via a Sumo Delilah Active crossover, which is set for a 63hz low pass and sends a summed signal at and below this frequency to my third MC501 amp and then on to the JBL sub. In this case however, I have a permanently attached shelf just above this amp, constraining my ability to install the stillpoints, let alone any other isolators under the amp platform. So, some compromise would have to be made in order to do it. An imminent price increase across the Stillpoint product line compelled me to grab a set, and then deal with the installation issue. If you can't raise the bridge, lower the river. My only obvious solution was to shorten the 1" tall plastic feet on Amp platform #3 by 1/2" in order to accomodate the Ultra SS's. So I purchased some basic 1/2" high rubber feet from Amazon, and awaited my inbound Stillpoint Ultra SS's. I installed the devices on MC501 #3 one week ago today. What I expected I figured that since I had the Ultra SS's under my left and right amps, most of the battle had already been fought. The results were very, very nice. I hoped for more more big improvements with the next step, but realistically, I figured my B460's bass might be cleaned up a bit. I really wasn't expecting much more than that. What I wasn't expecting What I wasn't expecting was....wow! Yes, my low end has been cleaned up, but more than a little. Much more character, tonality and finesse. But beyond that the system's ENTIRE presentation seems to have been (even more) improved. I'm not sure why the last 1/3 of the equation made such a difference, but it did! I'm speculating that this is because A) there is more information to be revealed in the 63hz and below region that I had realized and/or B) that in the active crossover arrangement that I have, that to have removed any "muddiness" that may have been present in this region pre-installation is/was really important. Whatever the reason, the difference is profound. Here's a look at the amp with the Stillpoints installed. In the first photo, you can get a glimpse of the Ultra-minis under my MCD1000 transport. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b1673869_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...8210a545_b.jpg Here's a couple of bonus shots of my main (left and right) MC501's in full dress: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4e3d573b_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...de6d42cf_b.jpg And a couple more showing the Ultra-minis. I've also dressed up my MDA1000 display a bit more since my last system post. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7189205e_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...494646be_b.jpg And let's not forget the Stillpoints LP1 VII record weight. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...fc711c58_b.jpg The cumulative effect Each time one of these devices is added, the effect is multiplied, seemingly exponentially. The cumulative effect on a system can be profound. A few years ago I would not have believed it. I remember our late friend Dan lamenting how when he took the Ultra SS's out of the box, he hoped that he would send them back due to the cost of these "feet" that couldn't possibly make a difference, right? You know the rest. The same can be said for isolation in general, as well as power conditioning, and other so-called "tweaks" that seemingly cost a lot of money. Since I started down the road with Stillpoints, Furutech filters, ADD-POWR Wizard, not to even mention cables, my system has been transformed in ways I never would have expected. The system very often presents things in a way you just simply are not expecting. I've come to the belief that you really can't have too much isolation. The revelations continue... One thing that I find especially fun are the surprises I get pulling out CD's or LP's I have not listened to in a long while, or even a short while. I may pull out one of my 1200 or so CD's that I have not listened to in a short while, say after upgrade "D". What a pleasant surprise! Even more fun, let's pull one out that I have not listened to since before upgrade A, B, C, or D. Holy cow! You get the idea...this is great fun. And that fun cycle repeats over and over as we continue the journey. The Stillpoints addiction I've heard it said quite a few times, by numerous members here, that Stillpoints are addictive....which brings me to the title of this thread "Stillpoints-Audio Crack?". Ivan once referred to the devices as "Audio Crack". That's a pretty fair assessment, IMO. Once you get a taste, you just want more. :yes: Thanks for joining me along my journey.... :thumbsup: |
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Pete, you simply have one of the most beautiful Mac systems I have seen. I paid 3K each for my three new AS125 Mac amp stands. I think yours just as beautiful. I care zero about vinyl. If I were going that route it would be with a high quality reel to reel deck, but that turntable and arm is something else to behold. It's beautiful, a work of art. I know it sounds great but I have no patience for vinyl. The way Mac's are designed with their simple feet allow for these types of upgrades like the Stillpoints, which I have no doubt significantly/tremendously improved your sound. Stillpoints work really well with McIntosh, I think.
Wilson is soon coming out, next 3-6 months, with Heavy Duty Pedestals desighned for amps. I'll be placing 4 under each of my 3500MKII's soon after. I agree with you that isolation devices, well designed like Stillpoints are, greatly improve the sonics of any system. If there is such a thing as audio crack isolation devices like Stillpoints work and the only damage they do is not to the body but to the wallet, soon forgotten when you discover the beautiful sound flowing from your speakers. Well done! Best Charles __________________________________________________ _ Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest New gear on order: McIntosh MC3500 MK II mono power amp, one per channel; custom granite slabs to set my MC3500 MKII’s; 3 AS125 custom made McIntosh amps stands Most recent updates: Latest is the last one posted: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee; Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx replaced by Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; new subwoofer crossover; new Galaxy Grey Thors Hammer; Wilson Pedestals; heating and cooling completely reworked and reinsulated resulting in a much quieter, cooler, and more efficient room (cost about 10,000.00). McIntosh MCT 500 SACD/CD transport. Wilson Audio Acoustic Diode for XVX Chronosonic. WEL Signature digital Coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection replacing the optical connection. New plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes. Thor is now off my floor. Amps: McIntosh 1.25KW’s (3) set on floor on custom made granite slabs Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100 Sources: McIntosh MCT500 SACD/CD Transport, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 23) Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties XVX Chronosonic; custom made Wilson Acoustic Diodes Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie and Wilson Watch Controller (abbr: WC); custom plinth of X material with Wilson Acoustic Diode feet Cables main system: Audioquest WEL Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); WEL Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; WEL Signature digital coaxial cable for MVP 881/D1100 digital connection; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for MVP 851 DVD player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Audioquest Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for MR87 tuner Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from WC to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to WC; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box Isolation: Wilson Pedestals for D1100; MVP881 BR player; MCT500 transport; MR87 tuner; plinth for Thor subwoofer made of X material with the Wilson Acoustic Diodes Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump. |
Charles.....thank you so much for the kind words my friend. Coming from you, what with the system you have assembled and continue to assemble, I consider that quite a compliment. :o
I do like my amp stands...I've actually had them made for other components as well. I've added them gradually over the years, so I can't give an accurate cost, but I can say the cost was very reasonable. I'd say that, the most I may have in any one of those stands, including logo and isolation footers, is less than $200.The new Mac stands certainly do look nice, but I just can't justify that kind of cost. But, as you point out and as others have pointed out, these are designed for the topline products and those with the budget necessary for a full blown system of that stature can probably afford them without difficulty. Another good point is when we consider how much we spend on cables (I'm guilty!), the stands shouldn't be any different. Yes, vinyl does come with some inconvenience, but it is a LOT of fun and the listening rewards make it worth it IMO. And yes, I do love my new VPI Prime Signature TT in Rosewood. It is indeed a work of art, my last Turntable purchase I'm sure. Thank you Ivan and VPI! I love analog as much as I love digital (or my name isn't Vintage Pete :D) You've probably seen this already but I do have a Crown SX724 Reel to reel deck. I don't play it a lot, but when I do it's a treat. I'm considering a cabinetry upgrade for it. Here's a recent shot, which shows the isolators I added to the platform under my MS750 Music Server. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...15b1ea8b_b.jpg I'm still trying to wrap my head around just how the Stillpoints can be so effective, even at low volume levels. I don't fully understand how this can be, but I do know they work, and I love the results. It's pretty amazing indeed. |
Pete, I just found your JBL220A horn conversion project on AA. This was back when my wife Debbie was so sick and I missed it. I'll have more to say soon but I want to say that I am mightily impressed with your system, not just the Stillpoints. I think your amp stands just as beautiful and effective as the ones I am purchasing. Mine are illuminated and can be turned off and on with the amp but your logo is absolutely gorgeous, so it's a toss up. Makes me totally jealous and feeling light in the wallet, not really, just kidding, I'm so happy for you. I think Mark W. with his Legacy Valor system has the most unique comprehensive system for controlling room acoustics on AA, perhaps just maybe anywhere. Similarly, I doubt anyone has a more cost effective, better thought out, comprehensive stereo system than you. The vinyl, analog tape, and digital capabilities of it are amazing. The speaker improvement project is amazing. I believe you about the Stillpoints.
Let's say your stand cost 300 dollars vs 3,000 for me. I think there would be many who would choose your stands. I can relate to your concern over the horns. My concern with my XVX was much worse because you had a way of reversing. I didn't. I can't request building a 329K speaker(s) and then back out. The project could have been a total disaster. I will not forget Ivan's comment concerning the dangers of an audiophile with a tape measure. I was down to 1-2 inches. But now I have a wonderful XVX on custom Acoustic Diodes and the sound is amazing. It went through a rite of passage and made it to the other side. You put it on the line with your 220A's and it worked! Let's say 3,000 dollars for your speakers and 300,000 for mine. I's say that's a pretty cost effective comparison, very similar to the amp stands I'd say. Congratulations! Best Charles |
Charles....wow, you're really making me feel pretty good here. :o I'm super pleased these days, it's been quite a bit of work but it's paid off well I think. Yes the horn project came with some risk, but I knew there was a huge potential reward. I never looked back once it was done. I would not trade these systems for a pair of L300's.
As we well know, there is no finish line with this hobby really, there is always something more to do, there is always that next little tweak. Since you mention the analog tape, one thing I need to do that I've been wanting to do for a long time is to get my Nakamichi Dragon back it service. It hasn't worked for years, and needs an overhaul. I've never been able to part with it, it just sits in my setup looking cool. It's the only thing that doesn't work. I almost pulled the trigger last year, but the guy I hoped to have do it won't touch units before a certain serial number, and mine is an earlier one. It won't even power up now so I can't even look at the lights. Once the last attempt fizzled out, other priorities took over, as often happens. Maybe this year I'll get it done. That's a classic piece for sure. Thanks again for all your kind words! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: |
I find the best use of Stillpoints to be component or application-specific but they are not the best footer for all components or devices in all applications. In my experience with them, they work best under components that are fairly "lightly-damped" with fairly thin steel chassis. They are effective for providing mechanical grounding onto dense wood platforms e.g. rock maple or bamboo. My old C-J CT-5 preamp would be a good example of a component of this type. I'm presently using them to best effect under my SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo network bridge. For my now-sold Schiit Gungnir DAC, the A/V Roomservice EVPs were a much better footer, or most effectively, under my REL sub, where the EVPs work very well indeed, particularly in isolating and quieting down the room itself from the energy imparted into the floor by the sub.
Another footer that should not be dismissed are the Herbie's Audio Labs Tenderfoot. These are inexpensive but very effective under a range of components, and are particularly useful under smaller, lighter components e.g. UpTone EtherREGEN, the UpTone LPS-1.2 LPS, and the Keces P3 LPS. Under the Constellation Inspiration integrated amp, the Stillponts make it sound "thinner and harder"; here the HRS Nimbus couplers and spacers work the best by far. Under the Shunyata Everest power distributor, the Shunyata SSF-50 footers work the best. So...in my experience, the best and most effective footers are very much appliciation/device-specific. There's no single solution that works best for everything. |
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You bring up a topic that has crossed my mind-and that is the use of isolators, whether they be Stillpoints or another brand on power devices-distributors, regenerators, etc. In my case, I wonder if there would be a sonic benefit utilizing isolators beneath my PS Audio DirectStream Power Plant P12 Regenerator? :scratch2: |
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I've just found that you need to try different types of footer solutions under dfferent components or devices, there's no one "perfect solution" for every thing or every application. This is because there is a lot of variation with respect to different components, their function or the functional responses they produce, and how vibration or mechanical energy may impact that specific function in particular. And, as well, how the component is constructed and the materials it's made from, what it's resting on, etc. The clocks in digital devices, in particular, are very sensitive to vibration, for example. First time I put a set of EVPs under my REL sub, it was a revelation because it made...the room itself significantly quieter. Quote:
So..you have to be a scientist. You have to do controlled experiments and keep a lab notebook. You have to try things and also examine, sometimes, multiple factors at once that interact. If you look at the panel at the lower left of this graphic, entitled "Interaction Profiles", which is a DOE I did to optimize integrating my sub to my 2-channel mains, you can see there is an interaction between sub gain and crossover, because the red and blue lines are converging. https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_c...reen%20cap.jpg *–Interactions are common in science and engineering, yet students are never taught to consider them in their OFAT approach. An interaction that is particularly common in chemistry and engineering is...the Time*Temperature interaction. Wanna bake some cookies? Well, the Time*Temperature interaction is what results in a properly baked cookie. Not time, not temperature, the INTERACTION is what is important. ☨–when I refer to noise factors here, I'm referring to "statistical noise", factors that shift the functional reponse (mediated by a transfer function) off the mean or median, or add variance, or add both. All functional responses have some level of "noise" as there are no perfect transfer functions in the real world. Cheers, Pete! |
In my experience with Stillpoints footers, the real estate mantra applies: Location, location, location.
The natural inclination to place the footers in a symmetrical three- (equilateral triangle) or four-footer (rectangular) configuration seems to work in most instances. But I've found that the weight distribution and/or power transformer location of some components renders asymmetrical placement more effective in maximizing audible improvements in noise reduction, detail retrieval, and soundstage presentation. This is true of Ultra Mini placement under my TEAC UD501 DAC (replaced by a UD505) and Ultra SS positioning under my c-j MF2500. Symmetrical placement of four footers under the 501 "thinned out" the sonics. In view of the 501's "off-balance" distribution, I spent some time determining where best to place three footers (yes, doing this can be a PITA) and hit sonic paydirt with an asymmetrical configuration that rendered the DAC a different, far more pleasant animal. With the MF2500, I stuck with four Ultra SS, but given the amp's power transformer location and resultant "cockeyed" weight distribution, it was evident that rectangular footer placement wasn't going to cut it. Playing with footer configurations under the 56-pounder (all the while dodging the side-mounted heat sinks) was no picnic, but I could hear perceptible-enough differences with various footer placement schemes (I'm sure my cardiologist would have had a cow if he knew) to make the effort worthwhile. I'm of course not done. The UD505 has three stock feet with manufactuer-claimed special isolation properties. So I'll be testing that against both the Ultra Mini and the Ultra SS to see which footer and configuration profile hits the mark. |
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Shown here, data plotted in JMP measuring vibration as Imparted Power, RMS using VibSensor. https://photos.imageevent.com/puma_c...%20footers.jpg |
A few notes: my first toe dip into Stillpoints waters was buying two quads from an AAer at a price too low to mention. I intended to put them under my speakers but unfortunately it was one of the rare cases Ivan couldn’t get an adaptor for. So the first quad went under my PS Audio P5 (since semi-retired for a Shunyata Hydra Sigma S12). I can tell you the Stillpoints and PS Audio regenerators are a great match and work very well together. I got cleaner sound and darker background. After a couple of months I put the other quad under my PrimaLuna integrated amp and that just magnified the effect, all for the positive. Since then I have added minis under my sources. I just got an Uptone EtherRegen and after reading this string I am going to unretire some Herbie’s Tenderfeet I have to try under it.
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Gentlemen....thanks for all the input. Quite a bit to digest, but briefly:
Stephen....the vibration app looks interesting. Is it only available for iOS? Also I agree with your comments about quieting the room itself rings true. I need more time to study everything you posted. Jim...yes, I've heard that experimenting with placement can have benefits. With my MC501 amps this isn't very practical given the weight of the amps and how they are situated. I'm using the threaded adapters as well. I'm more than thrilled with the results. I may do some experimenting with the placement of my ultr minis under my MCD1000 and MDA1000, I'm using 4 on each unit, using the "conventional wisdom" that 4 are more effective than 3. robfine...thanks for your input re using Stillpoints with PS Audio re-generators. I'm becoming more and more interested in trying this. I'm thinking maybe ultra minis would be the ticket with my P12. |
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Also available for Android... https://download.cnet.com/VibSensor/...-78370653.html |
Pete,
Very nice write up - some of Dan is channeling through you. One knock I have on VPi turntables are their isolation feet, or lack there of. I had terrible audio feedback through my Aries 3 x 3D table. Ivan worked with me to help solve this nagging issue. Between the Ultra 5s and HRS platform my table (audio room is on a second floor - suspended no less) I have nothing but audio bliss. When I spoke to MFremer about my headaches with vinyl playback he knew one of the culprits were the mini-HRX feet on my Aries 3. I can now listen as loud as I want with no feedback/rumble nightmares. It was by no means a cheap fix. |
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Stillpoints....Audio crack?
Hi Kevin, I would talk to Ivan. While I am pretty sure the P12 falls within the weight range of the Minis, if it is anything like the P5 in weight you might want to think about going with the Ultras. I can’t say they wouldn’t be as good but to my eye, and I have both Minis and Ultra SS here, it has never occurred to me to switch out the SS for the Minis. I would be very curious to hear what Ivan says. No science behind my comment except that the PS seems to weigh what some floorstander speakers do and I wouldn’t think of using minis under a floorstanding speaker. On the other hand I have the minis under my Halo May KTE dac and it is over 40 lbs so maybe…
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Re the UD505, conventional wisdom has triumphed, and with Ultra Minis. Four placed symmetrically under the 9.4-pound DAC produced audibly improved transparency and slam over a three-point configuration. |
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The next place I intend to try the minis is under my PS Audio DirectStream Power Plant 12 AC regenerator. I'm very interested to see what kind of results I get, since the regenerator is not an audio component in the strictest sense. But it would make sense that a power unit would benefit, and hence we would realize a benefit downstream. There does seem a consensus among those in the know that this is a really good place to utilize Stillpoints. After that, the next stop with minis will be at my McIntosh MP100 phono preamp. |
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My Ultra Minis arrived 3 days ago (Friday) and I installed them that evening. It didn't take long at all to realize I was hearing a positive change. To my ears, it seemed as if stereo separation had improved. While that doesn't seem to make sense at first, I think it is really because there is less overall masking and so those delicate cues that make up the stereo image are more readily picked up to the ear. In any event, each time I add more of these devices, there is further refinement and I'm impressed every time. At this point, with everything that has been done over the last few years, I'm feeling like my system is really sounding pretty "glorious". Aside from adding Stillpoint isolators under my speakers (too expensive), I think this will be the last Stillpoint addition that would influence the system in its entirely (as opposed to say, one source component). The next Stillpoints addition will likely be a set of Ultra Minis under my McIntosh MP100 Phono preamplifier. I'm thrilled once again!! Here's a couple of photos of the minis on duty with my P12.... https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e054c423_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9b6393be_b.jpg |
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When visiting one of my audio-skeptic friends (cables, tweaks, etc.) who is mostly vinyl, I took along the LP1 to see if he could hear the difference. Once he used it on 3 or 4 LPs, he refused to give it back (I did owe him). So, Ivan to the rescue with a new LP1 V2. I rank it as one of my 3 audio-epiphanies (along with cables & MC cartridges). If you are into vinyl you deserve an LP1. |
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They made more difference on the XR100 speakers than other components. I haven’t tried them on the XRT1Ks yet.
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Speakers are the #1 place to start. |
I had a VPI HRX with HRX weight. I purchased an LP1 from Ivan and noted that it tamed a bit of tizzy top end that I did not know existed until the LP1. It is a worthwhile improvement. The next best thing to vacuum hold down.
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What size bolt is coupling the Ultra5 to the speaker in this picture?
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That's an amazing job of balancing the load of an 330lb R1,....great job!
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My guess is you used some of those magic air bags to lift those speakers Ivan
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“An idle mind is the devil’s playground”, or something like that. Talk about a truism in the “Land of the Audiophiles”! Here I am 56 hours after coming home from surgery on my rotator cuff looking at and listening to my audio equipment from breakfast to bed excepting rehab and the mind wonders (maybe wanders too but not as much). All this Stillpoints discussion has me wondering. A number of years ago I bought some gently owned Stillpoints Ultra SS, 2 quad sets, from a fellow AA’er. I had planned to use them under my Thiel CS 2.3s. Unfortunately, the Thiels did not have threaded holes for spikes that Stillpoints could work with. Not a terrible loss, they ended up under my PrimaLuna integrated amp and (for one set, later) my Holo Audio May dac and all sounds very nice. But this thread reminds me of reading back then that Stillpoints work best when, in a system, they go under speakers first. Now instead of the Thiels I’m listening to Dynaudio Heritage Specials on Dynaudio Stands 20. And I’m guessing Stillpoints has adaptors that would work with these stands.
So… has anyone experimented by moving Stillpoints between speakers and amp + source to see which configuration you liked best? |
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