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-   -   Shindo Corton Charlemagne Q (https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=9519)

Jerome W 08-17-2011 01:18 PM

Shindo Corton Charlemagne Q
 
Hello Shindo friends !
I'm about to order a pair of those : http://pitchperfectaudio.wordpress.c...times-the-fun/
Any thoughts ?

PHC1 08-17-2011 02:00 PM

Jerome, based on my limited experience and I am sure others who have more time with Shindo under their belt will agree and based on the many threads I have read elsewhere about Shindo, magic exists on a different plane all together when there is a full Shindo setup. :yes:

I have little doubt you will love the C-C-Q but... I doubt you will get the full dose of magic Shindo is capable of. You will need a Shindo preamp to go with the amps. :yes:

Even the little things that we often take for granted change much of the Shindo voice. Just today I received another pair of Shindo ICs, big difference once again! I took out the power conditioner I was using (RGPC), huge difference! Added the Auditorium 23 speakers cables, WOW!!!!

It really seems and this has been said many times in many discussions, if you want the full Shindo effect, you have to go "all in" and take the systematic approach of all around synergy to optimize your Shindo system. Starting from the various speakers that have been proven to work, full Shindo gear, Shindo or at least A23 cables to plumb the system, otherwise you may not experience the true magic Shindo is capable of.

Many think Shindo is some kind of laid back, warm and cuddly sounding gear that does not resolve the details in the recordings and skews the tonal balance where everything sounds euphoric and colored. This has not been my experience at all! Every day, record after record, CD after CD, I can clearly hear all the little nuances and details that I have not noticed before. The difference between the various recordings is more evident than with most of the gear I have owned before. :yes:

The point to point wiring, the carefully selected components, the choice of tubes and topology that brings out the very best out of them, makes Shindo a very purist approach and one that really does open up a new window into your recordings. The resolution and detail is all there, it is not forced onto you like much of the other gear out there, that much is true but this is what makes the Shindo so unique. Most of the music and all but the very terribly dynamic range compressed and hot and heavy handed mastered recordings come across sublime. Not in the sense that they are rosy colored, nope, what you get is that unbelievable harmonic bloom, the naturalness of the vocals and instruments, the timbral sweetness of how an instrument is supposed to sound like, well, it sounds like music that is more real. Of course the immediacy, palpability, the three dimensionality of the instruments opened up in front of you that a SET amp can do, it simply makes you forget you are listening to a recording! It sounds more live!

The most important and this was an epiphany for me, is the way the instruments in a recording suddenly have an interdependent relationship to each other (A23 speaker cables brought this on) it's as if I am hearing my music collection for the first time and all the gear I have owned before was able to spot light every instrument but there was no musical connection between them. Now it is there. :yes: I don't know quite how to explain that phenomenon but I guess everyone who listens to a full Shindo, properly setup system walks away in amazement and I am very amazed and impressed right now as well. There must be something very right and very natural about Shindo sound that allows people to comprehend and connect with what they are hearing much better. I've noticed that with Lamm gear as well but not nearly to this extent as Shindo has presented me with. :music:

Whatever you decide and I really do hope you pull the trigger on Shindo and experience it, I hope you have the patience to see the project through to the end and experience the FULL SHINDO EFFECT! :thumbsup:

Jerome W 08-17-2011 02:09 PM

Serge,
Thanks for the great input. Highly appreciated.
My aim is to progress step by step.
The easier is to have other amps than my 2301's and switch speaker cables.
I will see how it turns out.
Then, I will add a Shindo preamp of course, but latter on.
Cheers,

PHC1 08-17-2011 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193717)
Serge,
Thanks for the great input. Highly appreciated.
My aim is to progress step by step.
The easier is to have other amps than my 2301's and switch speaker cables.
I will see how it turns out.
Then, I will add a Shindo preamp of course, but latter on.
Cheers,

Jerome, good luck with your Shindo journey! I think you will be very, very happy you started down the Shindo path. :music:

TommyC 08-17-2011 03:29 PM

Jerome, what about getting an used Aurieges to go with the CCQ? It's not that expensive. If you don't like it, you can pretty much sell it for what you paid for. If you do like it, you can upgrade and get great trade-in value. This will bring you much closer to the "Shindo" sound than the amp alone.

adhesiv 08-17-2011 03:32 PM

Agree with Tommy, the Aurieges won't disappoint at a lower entry point and will give you the full Shindo experience that Serge, Alberto, and I have been talking about. Ten when you're ready to upgrade, and you will want to, you can tradeup.

Jerome W 08-17-2011 03:47 PM

Come on guys, the Corton Q is already pretty expensive. Give me some time to breathe !

Puma Cat 08-17-2011 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193772)
Come on guys, the Corton Q is already pretty expensive. Give me some time to breathe !

Yeah, really. :thumbsup:

And Jérôme just bought a Ref 2 Phono, too, guys...

Jérôme, I like your "phased approach", that way you will be able to get to know the changes each component makes...

adhesiv 08-17-2011 04:10 PM

Sorry Jerome, didn't mean to make it sound like we're pressuring. Just wanted to suggest the best way I've experienced to enjoy in full. either way i have a feeling you'll enjoy no matter what :yes: like the others I'm interested in the hybrid Shindo experience so welcome to the green side and look forward to future commentary:)

It's easy to tell someone to do something when it's not your own money... ;)

pitchperfect 08-17-2011 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193696)
Hello Shindo friends !
I'm about to order a pair of those.
Any thoughts ?

Hello, I don't recommend it, really. It will depend, also, on your room size, but the PMC models you enjoy are 89db~ @ 4ohm~. I can't guarantee optimal performance with 70wpc - despite the very dynamic and driving nature of the CCQ's - it's not something I am entirely comfortable recommending with your speakers.

Sincerely,
Matt

Jerome W 08-17-2011 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitchperfect

Hello, I don't recommend it, really. It will depend, also, on your room size, but the PMC models you enjoy are 89db~ @ 4ohm~. I can't guarantee optimal performance with 70wpc - despite the very dynamic and driving nature of the CCQ's - it's not something I am entirely comfortable recommending with your speakers.

Sincerely,
Matt

Matt,
Thanks for this honest answer.
It seems that my speakers need a lot of power.
I thought that 70 W of class A could be enough for moderate volumes.
For high volumes, my plan was to keep my MC2301's.
I did not expect your answer.

Jerome W 08-17-2011 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adhesiv
Sorry Jerome, didn't mean to make it sound like we're pressuring. Just wanted to suggest the best way I've experienced to enjoy in full. either way i have a feeling you'll enjoy no matter what :yes: like the others I'm interested in the hybrid Shindo experience so welcome to the green side and look forward to future commentary:)

It's easy to tell someone to do something when it's not your own money... ;)

No worries, I was kidding actually !

Volks 08-17-2011 04:49 PM

Jérôme

Volks 08-17-2011 04:52 PM

Jérôme ....anytime you wanna sell your MC 2301's and jump feet first into a complete system of "Nippon Baby Greens"...i'll take your American "Big Blues":)! :thumbsup::banana:

jwhite613 08-17-2011 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitchperfect (Post 193783)
Hello, I don't recommend it, really. It will depend, also, on your room size, but the PMC models you enjoy are 89db~ @ 4ohm~. I can't guarantee optimal performance with 70wpc - despite the very dynamic and driving nature of the CCQ's - it's not something I am entirely comfortable recommending with your speakers.

Sincerely,
Matt

Matt... Is there something you would recommend (SHINDO) with Jerome's PMC speakers?

pitchperfect 08-17-2011 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193798)
Matt,
Thanks for this honest answer.
It seems that my speakers need a lot of power.
I thought that 70 W of class A could be enough for moderate volumes.
For high volumes, my plan was to keep my MC2301's.
I did not expect your answer.

I'm not going to say it won't work.. It may work fine and simply sound astonishing. But it may not. It's a tough call, as I think solid state or very high power tubes is probably a safer bet with your speakers. For your listening tastes and room size, you may find them suitable. I can't make a long distance judgement call, though, I'm sorry. Wish I was more local.. :D

pitchperfect 08-17-2011 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhite613 (Post 193897)
Matt... Is there something you would recommend (SHINDO) with Jerome's PMC speakers?

The CCQ's are the highest powered amps shindo makes - it's very plausible they will be incredible on the speakers, but it's really tough to know without listening to that particular combo. I recently sold a pair of of CCQ's to a fellow who had Harbeth 40.1 (not my personal cup of tea, speaker wise, though) and it drove the hell out of them. He has since switched speakers to something different, but when driving the Harbeth - it was fine. :yes:

Puma Cat 08-17-2011 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitchperfect (Post 193902)
The CCQ's are the highest powered amps shindo makes - it's very plausible they will be incredible on the speakers, but it's really tough to know without listening to that particular combo. I recently sold a pair of of CCQ's to a fellow who had Harbeth 40.1 (not my personal cup of tea, speaker wise, though) and it drove the hell out of them. He has since switched speakers to something different, but when driving the Harbeth - it was fine. :yes:

FWIW, I'm driving an 86 dB/W pair of Dynaudio speakers very effectively with a C-J tube amp putting out 70 Wpc.

pitchperfect 08-17-2011 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puma Cat (Post 193913)
FWIW, I'm driving an 86 dB/W pair of Dynaudio speakers very effectively with a C-J tube amp putting out 70 Wpc.

Not the prettiest load into 4ohm, but like I said, it's entirely plausible it may be fine - :scratch2: - also depends on room size and listening tastes.

I tend to be a bit conservative when it comes to speaker matching - Huge dips and peaks in impedance are something to be wary of. A stable impedance is also key.

-M

PHC1 08-17-2011 09:22 PM

Used to drive my 88dB Sonus Faber GM's with 75w of KT88's in a 14x17 room with no problem. Plenty of dynamic punch and no soundstage shrinking or congestion.

My Tannoy Kensigton are 93dB and 10w is plenty in my 14x21 room unless I really want to crank it which I usually never do. 96dB peaks are totally realistic though but at the cusp of where the Cortese starts to lose it's grip.

Jerome, besides efficiency, impedance swings are very important and if the load the tube amp down, it doesn't help if they are more efficient. Most tube friendly speakers are 8 ohm and more importantly, STABLE when it comes to impedance.

When I tried the MC2102 with 100w, there was absolutely nothing to gain in my system. Moreover, the 2102 sounded too warm and lacking luster with my Tannoy's. Blah.... too boring!
:no:


On the same note, the Ayon Crossfire of 30w SET power sounded absolutely sparkling and dynamically alive in my system. With the same efficiency Verity Audio Eleonore, it was a different story. It sounded like it was running out of juice and was congested and thick/muddy sounding. More drivers, more complex crossover, you see, results will vary.

Shindo owners all seem to have knowledge of few speakers out there that work well.

I dont blame Matt for not feeling comfortable with that recommendation. His honesty is most appreciated too! :thumbsup:

Jerome, the question is, are you prepared to change speakers if need be to get the Shindo amps to really sing?

cmalak 08-17-2011 09:37 PM

Jerome, I don't mean to divert the thread to another subject but this is somewhat related and may be of interest to you if you are really serious about pursuing Shindo...

Matt, I know John DeVore has demoed his speakers at various shows with Shindo and they are usually thought of as being synergistic. We know there are a few AAers here (Alberto and Serge) who have paired up Shindo with Tannoys and are liking the combo. What are some of the other tube-friendly/Shindo-friendly speakers lines that you have found to be a nice match-up with Shindo amplification? I know every situation is unique and each speaker will have an optimal match-up but if you think in general of stable impedance loads above 6/8 ohm type speakers that are relatively to very efficient (90dB and up), are there any speaker lines that you prefer to demo the Shindo gear with? Thanks

pitchperfect 08-17-2011 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193696)
Hello Shindo friends !
I'm about to order a pair of those.
Any thoughts ?

Hi Jérôme, thinking about this further -

Augmenting your setup with a Shindo preamp is something you should seriously consider, if you are looking to move into the Shindo line. More often than not, most of my customers who are looking to benefit from what Shindo has to offer, start with the preamp. Especially, considering you already have a suitable amps for your particular speakers. Then, in the future, as funds permit, you can look toward a Shindo amp, etc.

This way, you have a super linestage and phono at your disposal. Pairing a Maseto or Vosne Romanee to your amp would be quite excellent. :music:

I understand this is not what you had planned on, but it's my recommendation. :D

-M

Doug Lax 08-18-2011 12:08 AM

:pg2::pg2::pg2::pg2::pg2:
Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193696)
Hello Shindo friends !
I'm about to order a pair of those.
Any thoughts ?

Congrats Jerome I know how bad you wanted them

Jerome W 08-18-2011 01:46 AM

Ok folks, many good thoughts here. Thanks a lot !

Serge, I'm not sure if I 'm prepared to shop for new speakers if Shindo amps don't match mine. It does not seem very logical to me.
As many here, I think that the logical way to do in audio is to find speakers that you like, and then find the correct amp(s) to drive them.

I cannot ignore Matt's recommendations and yet my experience with low power amps with the EB1i tells me that the 70 W Class A CCQ should be more than enough to drive them the way that I want to.

I haven't been clear about my goal with this project so here I go.

There is nothing wrong to me with the sound of the 2301's. Most of the time, I listen at moderate volumes. Yesterday night, I was listening at Patricia Barber's Fortnight in France, and I wanted to crank the volume up to peaks of 300 W but it does not happen often.
My goal is to have the choice of an other flavor, an other sound, but still with my speakers, as I can't put multiple speakers side by side.

In june, I tried the Verdier 845 Triode Spirit : SET of 20 W in class A. It was able to reach high levels of SPL, although much less than the 2301's.
They were fast, involving and grain free. Indeed they sounded more musical and refined to my ears, for music only without vocals, than the 2301's. The sound was more direct, more alive, yet highly refined. Completely intoxicating. Certainly not as neutral as the 2301's but giving me more pleasure. I was about to write the check for them and was fully under their charm when I listened to a cd of Diana Krall and realized that I did not recognize her ! After many cds and lps of female singers, it was obvious that although things were wonderful for music only, the voices were all presented a tone higher than in the real life. All singers were like 10 to 20 years younger + leaner. The Mcs were head and shoulders above the Verdier for voice reproduction on my speakers. Maybe due to a problem of impedance matching, I don't know. Strange because things were ok for bass and treble. I would not have suspected a problem of impedance for the mids. I told this story to my friend Jean Marc and he immediately said : " the McIntosh mids are the best I know. You won't find better elsewhere if you like this sound".

I told about this to a dealer in Paris who sells highly musical amps and speakers, among them Leben, Ear, Nagra, Verity Audio and he told me this : you always loose a certain degree of finesse and musicality with high power amps. He's willing to let me try at home the Nagra 845 PushPull class A. 2 x 50 W. I asked about their sound to Massimo, a member here that owns both the Nagra amps and the 2301's and he told me that although he did not make an A / B test, the Nagra sounded more refined to his ears compared to the 2301's but of course, less powerful.

All this story reminded me of the will of that dealer to let me the Nagra 845's in my home. This is not often for such gear in France. My ARC dealer, which I bought the Ref2 from a month ago, and my Clearaudio TT told me that he could make a demo of the Ref 5 in my home but could not let it to me for a few days !
I cannot ignore both the kindness of this Nagra dealer and the 845 amps. If they sing the way I want on my speakers, then I may end up buying them or trying the Shindo CCQ ( the Shindo idea will continue to torture me until I hear one ! ). If the Shindo is not my cup of tea, I will sell them and buy the 845.
I'm a bit reluctant to do that because this dealer is so kind and professionnal that I feel it would not be fair to him if I try the 845 and finally end up ordering the CCQ. Maybe I could tell him all the story and propose him to pay for the tryout of the 845 if I don't buy them finally ?

Ordering a Shindo preamp is a no no at this time. Too complicated to have 2 preamps in my system. Monoblocks are much easier to switch.

Puma Cat 08-18-2011 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmalak (Post 193928)
Matt, I know John DeVore has demoed his speakers at various shows with Shindo and they are usually thought of as being synergistic. We know there are a few AAers here (Alberto and Serge) who have paired up Shindo with Tannoys and are liking the combo. What are some of the other tube-friendly/Shindo-friendly speakers lines that you have found to be a nice match-up with Shindo amplification?

Audio Note.

m.tonetti 08-18-2011 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 194016)
...

I told about this to a dealer in Paris who sells highly musical amps and speakers, among them Leben, Ear, Nagra, Verity Audio and he told me this : you always loose a certain degree of finesse and musicality with high power amps. He's willing to let me try at home the Nagra 845 PushPull class A. 2 x 50 W. I asked about their sound to Massimo, a member here that owns both the Nagra amps and the 2301's and he told me that although he did not make an A / B test, the Nagra sounded more refined to his ears compared to the 2301's but of course, less powerful.

All this story reminded me of the will of that dealer to let me the Nagra 845's in my home. This is not often for such gear in France. My ARC dealer, which I bought the Ref2 from a month ago, and my Clearaudio TT told me that he could make a demo of the Ref 5 in my home but could not let it to me for a few days !
I cannot ignore both the kindness of this Nagra dealer and the 845 amps. If they sing the way I want on my speakers, then I may end up buying them or trying the Shindo CCQ ( the Shindo idea will continue to torture me until I hear one ! ). If the Shindo is not my cup of tea, I will sell them and buy the 845.
I'm a bit reluctant to do that because this dealer is so kind and professionnal that I feel it would not be fair to him if I try the 845 and finally end up ordering the CCQ. Maybe I could tell him all the story and propose him to pay for the tryout of the 845 if I don't buy them finally ?

Jérôme, I suggest you to try the Nagra VPA.
You consider that it is not easy to try at home these components.
You can feel lucky for this opportunity.

The sound of 845 & KT88 is different, the 845 sound is more intimate and refined.
However, you consider that the NAGRA VPA are very abnormal 845 tube amps.
A very transparent sound, It's probably the sound you are looking for.

Jerome W 08-18-2011 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m.tonetti (Post 194020)
Jérôme, I suggest you to try the Nagra VPA.
You consider that it is not easy to try at home these components.
You can feel lucky for this opportunity.

The sound of 845 & KT88 is different, the 845 sound is more intimate and refined.
However, you consider that the NAGRA VPA are very abnormal 845 tube amps.
A very transparent sound, It's probably the sound you are looking for.

Thanks for the input Massimo :thumbsup:
Yes, I will try them at home if the dealer still agrees for that. They may be exactly what I'm looking for.
+ they are fully balanced so no need to use other cables from the C1000 than my actual Wireworld XLR cables.

JSCC 08-18-2011 02:58 AM

Out of curiosity, how come no recommendation to pair Shindo amps with Shindo speakers?

I remember reading somewhere, someone had bought the Shindo TT. Might as well go for the full lineage to get the right SHINDO sound - from input to output? Am I missing something here?

I had this "weird" inclination as after going thru the "mix and match" combo systems I owned before, I finally found the "Meridian sound" (as a system) is that much wholesome. Thats probably true for an entire McIntosh Reference combo too (this Ivan have to chip in). Somehow, I think voicing had to do with this - right from the creation of the gear.

I stand corrected on this thinking though. Welcome opinions on this.

Jerome W 08-18-2011 03:50 AM

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I won't be happy until I get Shindo amps in my system. I'm too curious.
The Shindo Corton Charlemagne Q monoblocks will be ordered today.
Will sell them if I don't like them.
We only live once !

1KW 08-18-2011 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193772)
Come on guys, the Corton Q is already pretty expensive. Give me some time to breathe !

:icon_greenbouncer: Congrats. Jerome ! I am looking forward to reading your impressions of your new mono amps. :thumbsup: Our little group is very good at spending your money :roflmao: .

Jerome W 08-18-2011 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1KW

:icon_greenbouncer: Congrats. Jerome ! I am looking forward to reading your impressions of your new mono amps. :thumbsup: Our little group is very good at spending your money :roflmao: .

Thanks David !

cmalak 08-18-2011 09:20 AM

Congrats Jerome. I am curious too to see how you like them with your PMCs :thumbsup: Good luck.

Volks 08-18-2011 09:33 AM

Congrtaz Jerome.........now about your MC 2301"s hehe :)

Jerome W 08-18-2011 09:52 AM

Cyril, Michael : Thanks !
Michael : my plan is to keep both. But if I like the Shindo a lot, I may decide to sell the 2301....

Alberto 08-18-2011 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 193696)
Hello Shindo friends !
I'm about to order a pair of those : 4 x the fun « pitch perfect audio
Any thoughts ?

I am sorry I came late to this thread - I've been very busy with work.

It depends on how much of a gambler you are. As Matt said, it might sound wonderful, then again it might not. The impedance curve affects much more than the SPL you can achieve, it affects the tone more dramatically than anything else I can think of other than your speaker-room interaction.

I know your objective is to have a flexible system with one preamp, one set of speakers and two power amps depending on your listening mood. It's an interesting idea, but I am not sure that you'd be getting anything close to the Shindo sound/experience -- and the amp you are considering is not inexpensive.

Alberto

Jerome W 08-18-2011 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberto

I am sorry I came late to this thread - I've been very busy with work.

It depends on how much of a gambler you are. As Matt said, it might sound wonderful, then again it might not. The impedance curve affects much more than the SPL you can achieve, it affects the tone more dramatically than anything else I can think of other than your speaker-room interaction.

I know your objective is to have a flexible system with one preamp, one set of speakers and two power amps depending on your listening mood. It's an interesting idea, but I am not sure that you'd be getting anything close to the Shindo sound/experience -- and the amp you are considering is not inexpensive.

Alberto

Alberto,
Thanks for your remarks.
I consider myself a gambler on that one. We'll see !
But I will consider you personally responsible for what is going to happen :roflmao: !

PHC1 08-18-2011 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C220MC275 (Post 194028)
The more I think about it, the more I realize that I won't be happy until I get Shindo amps in my system. I'm too curious.
The Shindo Corton Charlemagne Q monoblocks will be ordered today.
Will sell them if I don't like them.
We only live once !

Jerome, I like your style! :thumbsup: Yeah! :banana:

PHC1 08-18-2011 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSCC (Post 194025)
Out of curiosity, how come no recommendation to pair Shindo amps with Shindo speakers?

I remember reading somewhere, someone had bought the Shindo TT. Might as well go for the full lineage to get the right SHINDO sound - from input to output? Am I missing something here?

I had this "weird" inclination as after going thru the "mix and match" combo systems I owned before, I finally found the "Meridian sound" (as a system) is that much wholesome. Thats probably true for an entire McIntosh Reference combo too (this Ivan have to chip in). Somehow, I think voicing had to do with this - right from the creation of the gear.

I stand corrected on this thinking though. Welcome opinions on this.

Jerry, Shindo speakers are the holy Grail! :yes: The price is tough to swallow! :tears:

Jerome W 08-18-2011 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jerome, I like your style! :thumbsup: Yeah! :banana:

Thanks Serge !
I met good Masters here. You know, people who go from Krell to Mc to Lamm to Ayon to Shindo....and from SF to Wilson to Tannoy....:roflmao: :thumbsup:
Spice of the life is variety !
We only have one wife right ? We can have multiple amps !

joe1515 08-18-2011 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHC1 (Post 194140)
Jerry, Shindo speakers are the holy Grail! :yes: The price is tough to swallow! :tears:

I have never seen any retail prices for their speakers, what do they go for?

Joe


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