which DAC and why?
 

What DAC are you happily running with your Cary Audio / AES / Inspire gear?

Considerations:
Looking to replace mine. Note: I already have a tube preamp. Possibly moving to something with dual DACs, maybe something that can run DSD. Not really looking for bluetooth or preamp functions. A Dedicated DAC is preferred. Maybe the new Pro-Ject Box? SCHIIT? Audio Alchemy? or used Benchmark? Wyred 4 Sound?

..maybe 32-bit, ESS dual DACs, not sure. Probably in the $1000 to $1500 max range would be nice. Any thoughts, ideas... or are you excited about a particular unit by chance, a good value DAC you jumped to recently, maybe? Thanks in advance for your replies. Majority of the time I'll likely use it for streaming more than laptop or CDs, but hopefully for some improvement with streaming on Spotify Hi-fi or Tidal for now.




.

The offerings from MHDT Labs are well regarded. I use a NOS Havana DAC. Very analog sounding IMHO. I've had it for 8-9 years and still like it. They use a 2C51/5670 tube and are capacitor coupled.

Right now I'm running a newly released iFi iDSD Pro, it's displaced my prior reference DAC the Auralic Vega. I thought the Vega was a world-beater even at it's full $3500 retail price. And now the iDSD Pro is handily besting it at a price of $1k less, $2500.

I think what I like about the iFi gear is that it generally sounds closer to vinyl than other DACs I've heard. Having a really nice tubed output stage using 2c51 tubes probably helps. I also really like being able to choose between NOS, and various oversampling options (there's several available). I find I tend to go for NOS with music and oversampling for movies.

Nice. I have not tried a good tubed DAC yet. I have a lot of research to do I guess. The more I look, more there is, amazing. Good grief, a LOT more DACs out there than I imagined. Have not looked much the past five years.

Have either of you heard or demo'd a Benchmark DAC or compared to either of your MHDT or iFi DACs before?

Using the Oppo Sonica

https://www.oppodigital.com/sonica-dac/

Leew... Welcome to AA! :wave:

Leew,
Thanks. Did Oppo give any indication how much longer they will be open to support the unit or firmware upgrades? I was surprised to see the unit is still listed for sale after they announced they will be closing their doors after 14 years.
Selling off remaining stock -OR- still in manufacturing of the Sonica-DAC?

I've not heard the iFi or Benchmark DAC. There are a lot of DAC offerings and, IMHO, digital is a slippery slope. *I* never warmed up to upsampling/oversampling digital devices. They just did not sound 'right' to me. What do you not like about you current DAC?

My existing DAC is a 2013 design, sounds pretty nice. I do like it, but the've come out with newer versions of the same DAC adding more noise with bluetooth and headphone amps included. The newer version is probably not for me. It's a mid grade DAC at best. I'm consolidating my systems for a while, and not having owned a really nice high-end dedicated DAC before, I'd simply like to try one. Not much to demo around my area in the way of DACs. Prefer not to do the whole buy/try/return thing. Hope to narrow it down a bit through referrals from folks here and elsewhere, Thanks! :thumbsup:

I don't know, I bought the dac when they first came out.

I've owned DACs by iFi, MHDT, Auralic, Scott Nixon, Empirical Audio and I've extensively demo'd DACs from PS Audio, MSB, Bryston, Benchmark, Schiit, and a few others that escape me at the moment.

I agree with FloridaBoy - non-oversampling DACs sound the most musical. I tend to like the sound of those DACs the best. Scott Nixon, MHDT, MSB and iFi are all voiced in a more analog type of sound.

That doesn't mean that the other DACs don't sound good. They do sound good, just different. They tend to be voiced more toward high resolution, fast transients and big dynamics. IME, digital has progressed to the point that most good quality DACs are smooth. So it really comes down to voicing and presentation and resolution. And price :D

Hey Tyson - good to see you here.

Re ps audio. The DS just keeps getting better. What I just love about it is the continual support for upgrades. If you believe ‘it’s about the journey’, well this feels like you are buying a new unit every 8 months or so. Highly recommended

Oh almost forgot to mention - another upgrade is coming in a week or two. :)
Thanks Tim

I sure LOVE my Cary Audio DMS-500 DAC. :music:

Detailed and rich.

demo
 

Gonna try the new Benchmark DAC3 B that just came out. Ships Monday. Clean and simple, no up sampling or other gizmos I did not want. They used the former 28Pro ESS chip vs the new one, said it sounds better with their implementation on this go-around. They carry a 30 day return policy. Did some reading up on the DAC1,2,3 and evolution. If it sounds musical, I might keep it. If it's overly analytical (not smooth), I'll exercise the return policy. We'll see how it goes.

I really like my DAC3 HGC. It does an excellent job with Redbook material and of course hi-rez.

That's a good sign. I'm curious to know if the new generation DAC3 units are more towards the lean and detail sound or less so and more on the neutral or warm side?

I realize there are other factors but generally people will provide feedback on a/b comparisons for DACs alone when nothing else in the system has beenchanged.

I would characterize the DAC 3 HGC I have as very musical and neutral sounding. The DAC 3 B should sound identical since, it is! If the rest of your system is very detailed, it may not be for you. For my system it just does a great job with everything I throw at it. As always your associated gear and synergy or lack thereof will tell the final tale. :) Enjoy!

Good to know. Prior to purchase, scanning around I found several comments which described it as being "neutral". I'm glad you noted it as being "musical" in your system. I'd been looking for that description, had not found it until yours. My system teeters right on the line of neutral where it can be pushed to lean towards detailed or towards warm with a single interconnect cable change at any source. Benchmark claims there is no break-in time. Can't wait to hear it first hand in a week or so. Thx.

“One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”

With Benchmark’s 30 day return policy, you really can’t go wrong - if it doesn’t float your boat, send it back.

I just don’t trust DAC reviews because of confirmation bias “my Belchfire 5000 was worth every penny of the $80,000 I spent”. Also big differences between everyone’s systems makes comparisons really difficult.

Enjoy the experience!

Tom

I had not looked at DACs much for the past five years. Researching again and looking at the various applications, It's interesting how some well known manufacturers will hang on to use of a former generation DAC inside (-3, -2, -1) for many years before they upgrade to a newer version DAC. And yet others are full steam ahead on the latest generation DAC. Understandably manufacturing costs having something to do with it of course, but something else appears to be happening with consumers (new to me). As I started looking into this more I've come across individuals who are seeking units with "older" DACs in them (and older designs) looking for a particular "sound" somehow implying in some way that "newer is not always better", etc. I'm guessing here some of the newer units (by some manufacturers) can be overly detailed or edgy with some brands and designs with some of the newer gen DACs and how they were/are being implemented the past 2-3 years. And, comments of latest generation designs fixing some of these issues, sort "taming" the sound closer to what I'm familiar with from some of the "polite Britt" DACS I've owned and tried. Who knows, may end right back where I started... hahah.

Hmmm... seems probable I may be rotating though a few DACs again until I find one with a good synergy with my system. Guess I have a lot to learn here to catch back up.

A lot has happened in the last 5 years in the DAC world so this should be a fun ride.

There are a lot of folks really liking some of the older ladder-DAC designs based on specific long-out-of-print BurrBrown and Analog Devices parts.

So many options now at every price point, these are the good old days.

Has your DAC arrived?

Tom

Hey Tom,
Yep, just arrived. opening up tonight gonna let it run in for a little bit.

New Benchmark DAC3 B is out of the box, up and running tonight for a 1st listen.

I'M REALLY NOT SURE HOW TO WRAP MY MIND AROUND THIS THING STARTING OUT. I'm coming from an Arcam irDAC with Burr Brown chips set. Former DAC was kinda smooth w/some detail. Now on to this Benchmark. Its really different. Wow, maybe overwhelming.


First impressions hours 1-3: Not sure if I like it or not yet. Brain needs to adjust to this.

Early Pros:
-Larger and wider sound stage right off the bat. The first 10-15 minutes was a bit cold, edgy.
-A bit more forward than I'm use to with my lush tube preamp / tube amp vintage tubes.
-More sound and information coming out all over across the music spectrum.
-Hearing background details and echo sounds more than before forward, mid, back.
-It's almost like there is 15-20% more apparent sound now in comparison. Kinda odd 4 me.
-Break-in? Benchmark said "no break in" yet I hear a different at hour 3-4, a tad smoother.
-I can tend to play it at a lower volume and still hear a lot of detail if low-level listening is important.
-GOOD recordings can really sound great with this DAC. It brings out the good stuff. Can do the same with bad though.

Early Cons:
Can be a little overwhelming at first if you are use to a more laid back smooth sound like I am.
A little too forward at times for me, but this also brings other details I could not hear as much with my prior laid bak DAC.
Fatigue. I had it up a the same volume as I normally play. Wife complained it was "too loud". Maybe too forward, more detail, edgy at times.
My Dog barks more. It's as if he hears new stuff and background noises going on now, and runs outside looking for something. Kinda funny.
-BAD recordings still sound bad, harsh. No masking going on here like a smooth tube amp can do. This DAC brings out the bad stuff too.

Mid to Highs:
Definitely more open and transparent top-end 25% of range. Makes it more forward though.

Bass:
Seems tighter and faster. Lows go low, but I don't notice it going as low as before now that upper mid bass is more present, tighter, faster than before...for whatever reason.

Guitars:
I tend to focus on the sound of guitars and different tracks. I play some older 80s/90s music that was not recorded as well (on purpose). Also, tried a few newer songs where i'm use to the sound of a particular guitar and player and can say one thing for sure, this DAC gets guitars RIGHT. Was not expecting that.

Pianos:
Sounds pretty natural. Better than my last two DACs. Definitely hearing better tone with guitars and pianos, or maybe I just key in on these things.

Voices:
More tone and gravel to voices comes through for sure. Perhaps this is because the overall sound is more transparent, i don't know.


Initial impressions 1st night:
For the first 15-30 minutes I felt as if I would be sending it back quickly. While my tube preamp and tube amplifier was already warmed up I gave this DAC a chance to run now for 4 hours solid. Now going into the 5th hour all the sudden it's as if its starting to smooth out a little (opposite of what the Benchmark Tec said), he told me there was "no break-in required". Not sure why, its not my ears, it's starting to grow on me a little now after more time on it the first night.
The part that is playing tricks on my brain is how more overall sound seems to be present, it makes it seem as if the sound is a little more forward, yet if I listen closely, I can still hear stuff going on in the background too.

There is no discernible signature to the sound. its as if I can hear everything now. Different.

It's almost as if it's TOO PERFECT if there is such a thing.

Closing Thoughts 1st night:
I am using my softer sounding interconnects and speaker cables too. No way i'd want to use my more transparent cables, it would be too much, too detailed. I'm more use to a smoother "polite sound" with my tube amps. With this new Benchmark DAC3 B, it's a tad closer to my former solid state sound or maybe about half way between my former SS amps and my tube gear I'm running now. Very interesting. Had no idea a DAC change could change the sound that much. Better, not sure, different, yes, engaging, yes. Smooth, sort of, getting better with more burn in time on the DAC, not sure why.

QUESTION:
I'm wondering IF this new Benchmark Dac will smooth out even more with more break-in time (opposite of what the Benchmark Tec told me) This week I found two guys had this Bemchmark, kept their other dacs and this one too, maybe i see why. I'm running through all of my music hearing new subtle details with every song.

Excellent first impressions and review. I’d give it a few days of break-in for the edginess to recede, irrespective of what Benchmark says. :)

Most interested in your results. The DAC3 B is high on my list for a "DAC-only" DAC.

UPDATE#2, Day2 with Benchmark DAC3 B -


The DAC3 B is extremely open and transparent. Amazingly so. All else is good, but now I’m focusing on what is/not there with midrange and a bit of a lack of midrange warmth I’m normally use to hearing with all of my other sources. Trying to figure out why, is it just me.

-Bass: Suepr fast, tight, clean. Amazingly accurate. No bass bloom as a result. No bass signature otherwise.
-Highs: Amazingly smooth, clean, open. Very-Very-Very transparent. Never heard more open or smoother highs before. No discernible signature otherwise.
-Midrange: nice, clean, super flat. Lacking some midrange warmth IMO. The midrange is there, but lacking vibrance so far with this brand new DAC.

Note: I’m using Cardas Golden Cross RCA interconnects. One of the smoothest and warmest RCA interconnect cables Cardas ever produced. What’s strange is I do not notice the cables as much now. I'm super familiar with swapping these cables in over the years to tone down certain details on some bright components. What keeps me interested right now in this new DAC3 B is the rest of the spectrum (excluding a lack of midrange warmth) is the fact that everything else comes through, amazingly so. It’s really interesting. It's as if i'm having to adjust my own thoughts of what it should sound like.

CONFIRMED:
If you like super open, super transparent, added depth, but don’t mind a little forward sound now too, this DAC3 B unit covers all of that and then some.

Hmmm, however I'm scratching my brain with a new question going on inside my head now as I let this thing burn in some more. Maybe a tad smoother Day2.

Do I need to re-learn how to listen to my music all over again because now I’m hearing it the way it’s suppose to be? (flat, clean, open, transparent, detailed, now lacking some lush warmth?)

Oh, one last thing... on some recordings voices come through like never before. It's all there, some times it feels like it's "too much" voice if that does not sound crazy. I'd like to see voices set back just a tad more. Right now it's a little more "in your face" on some voice tracks where the voice is really well recorded.

Again, is this how it's supposed to be?

The DAC3 B is extremely open and transparent. Amazingly so. All else is good, but now I’m focusing on what is/not there with midrange and a bit of a lack of midrange warmth I’m normally use to hearing with all of my other sources. Trying to figure out why, is it just me.

Perhaps try a warmer input tube?

Hey Florida Boy,

It's only sources via this new DAC that sound a tad too forward for me. All else is great. However, I like your idea. Right now my SLP98 pre is running my prized 1960s Sylvania 6SN7 Black plates, matched quad set. My V12R amp is running 1960s Sylvania EL84s and Sylvana 12BZ7 inputs in front. I do have one set of RCA EL84s I could try.

Any recommendations on a more laid back set up front for pre or amp?

RCAs are pretty laid back, and I've found National Unions to be pretty good at the mids. Of course vintage Tung Sols are amazing and IME the best of the SN7 type tubes, but everyone knows that and thus they are very expensive.

I’ve tried all of these including TS SN7s. A buddy has a huge collection and demos. My NoS Sylvanias are truly one of the more open and transparent in my preamp.

Maybe that was good with my old DAC but maybe not such a great synergy with this new Benchmark DAC. Not sure I want to change out my Sylvanias. They do command good money on FleaBay though. Hmmm.

Will have to consider A) other front end tubes or B) other DAC. Thx.

Stopping here. Choosing B.

Returning the Benchmark DAC3 B tomorrow. Nice, but not a good synergy with my system and my ear as compared to my former DACs based on how my speakers and equipment sounds today. Nothing against Benchmark at all. Neat unit, just not for me.

Isn’t is great you can try it out at home with your other gear to see if it is a fit? Low risk.

Yes. It's awesome in fact, and many direct-internet sales based companies seem to be trying this now days which is great for all parties. My guess is the odds of success increase sales more than not doing this. "Fit" has to do with so many other variables but it offers a new path. Well, we'll see, still gotta get my RMA# and refund, but I'm not suspecting any problems. Was really helpful to try it though. If someone is looking for "perfect" engineered output and sound, the BM DAC3 B is it. It turns out my preference with music and sound is something less than perfect thus retaining aspects of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics along with retaining some level of good old distortion. The best part of my tube preamp and tube amps is some pieces of the distortion and the added 3rd order harmonics. I guess I'm an old school fool but have a preference in how I want my music to sound I guess :)

There is a MHDT NOS Havana DAC for sale $400. It's cap coupled and uses one 5670 tube. I've had mine for years. Very musical with plenty of detail. If I replaced it I think I'd look at Audio Note.

There is an ebay seller, kievfilarmony200639, in Ukraine that has some interesting DACS. Someone here in the Shindo forum has one in his rig. I've looked at these for a while. :scratch2:

Your ears & your money. No one can listen for you. Do what's right for you. :thumbsup:

Good call. IME if you don't like the DACs basic sound, it's really hard to "fix" it with changes to downstream components.

FB, Thanks for the referral. I sort of live in "AudioNote Land" and "PassLand" 'round here, lots of both. Mr. Pass is 20 min away... Our only remaining hi-end audio store (20+ around herein the 70s-80s) now down to one guy, one store, been in business 52 years and he like the the AudioNote king, most of the entire store of all new gear is AN, heard it all. Super nice. Does not follow all the regular engineering rules, only those that sound the best. Maybe when I consolidate back down to a small system, read to retire, it will be AN in the future. Very musical for sure. Last DAC I saw there was only 16bit. Amazing. Agree.

Tyson,
I just know one thing, I want to be "engaged". I know I'm engaged with a system when even the bad recordings sound good too, or at least when I want to listen to the end of the song. When it sounds more like ProAudio, I immediately become fatigued, dis-engaged, and find myself looking for "other" tracks to play. My measure of a decent system is having it sound musical even when the recordings were not so good. Def gonna roll through some other DACs, including a few loaners from friends.

Thanks.

Agree 100%.

You should check out iFi - they make really good sounding DACs that are closer to analog than anything else I've heard under $5k. Most other DACs just don't get tone correct, but iFi does. Even their $500 Micro DAC is really good, but the $2400 iDSD Pro with tubed output is something else!

You guys are enablers. :D: I took a chance and bought a NOS DAC on ebay. Fingers crossed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC2-1-3-5v...72.m2749.l2649