Not with all the OT I'm doing lately . . .

I try not to listen critically, just normally. It works for me, I think. And I have good ears, probably because I don't blast my music. Standard volume for the 2300 is set to 42 (out of 100); my previous preamp (the solid-state Audio Research LS3) was always on 8 (out of 30 steps; 10 on occasion). So the system is turned up higher than before, relatively speaking, but it's not too much since the 2300 doesn't play as loudly.

And when I get to spend real time with the system, I generally do enjoy!

I am thinking about something. This whole tube thing may come down to how I define my system. It's two-way and two-channel. If I think of it as a stereo first, I might leave the GLs in. If I consider it a HT, then I might put the JJs back in. When I have company (infrequent at this point), the emphasis is on HT, so that's a big factor.

With the JJs, I can play the system louder with no fatigue or hard/bright highs; they're more forgiving of such recordings. With the GLs, I get that wider dynamic range, but so far find I have to turn things down a bit to listen more easily because the upper frequencies seemed too hard/bright with some material. The GLs have 61:43 on them, so maybe the top will smooth out still. And, perhaps, one person's "rolled off" is another's "smooth."

Ok, a question. Does anyone have experience with Black Sable Sovtek 12AX7LPS tubes? If so, how did they seem to you?

I put this out there because I looked at Tube Depot's comparison and, according to that, the Sovteks compare favorably ("on paper," as it were) to Gold Lions. The GLs should be quieter at high volumes, but the Sovteks rate higher in headroom, sensitivity, slightly higher in signal gain, and are even with the GLs in tonal balance. Another interesting note is that the GLs are described as having a "faithful" low-end response, whereas the Sovteks are described as having a "full" low-end response (the JJ's low end is described similarly, and that is why my curiosity is piqued). Plus, they're cryogenically treated.

The Sovteks are about $5 more than the GLs, but may be worth a shot. Still, real experience is better than the ratings, which is why I asked if someone here has heard them. I said I had no intentions of becoming a bonafide tube roller, but this may put me on that path if I'm not careful.

If you want a really good website with info on just about any audio tube ever made check out the Brent Jessee tube website.
I have a growing collection of tubes, both power and signal tubes. Some are new modern tubes that came with amp's that I purchased but most are older used tubes that I have scavenged from flea markets,yard sales and tube buddies. I have never failed to improve the sound of any amp or preamp section by replacing the newer reissued tubes with better vintage tubes. There is a big difference between the two.
The site I referenced gives a run down of all the different types for each tube model.
I run vintage GE 6L6GC tubes in the power section of my MC 40 mono blocks and Telefunken signal tubes in all sockets except the 12BH7, they are vintage Sylvania's.
I could not be happier with the sound of my Mac's.
My Denise Had Inspire SE Fire Bottle amp came with reissue KT66's tubes and I pulled them after listening to them. Replaced with the closest thing I had, some 6L6GC RCA black plates, what a difference! Rolled in some GT EL34 and ran them for a few days, replaced with some vintage Mullard EL34 tubes. What a difference!
With the class of gear that you have, you owe it to yourself to look beyond new production tubes. The nice thing about small signal tubes is that they can last a very, very long time. It's not uncommon to find a vintage Mac tube amp with the OEM tubes still in it.

BillWojo

Charles.......What is the difference in reading a description of performance on a tube seller's web page and reading someone's comment on a forum? You are no closer to understanding the sound of a tube than you were before you went searching. Until you put tubes in your amplifier and listen to them with your ears in your system you will not know squat about how they sound. Spend some money, purchase the tubes you're interested in, make your comparisons, and sell the ones that don't suit your taste. Quizzing people for their opinions will not give you a definitive answer.

Ok, but I don't expect a definitive answer based on others' opinions. I agree completely that the ultimate answer is in listening to them myself. But gathering information is what I do to help in decisions (especially in unfamiliar territory such as tubes), and the information and opinion around here is better than I might get elsewhere. The overwhelmingly positive comments regarding the C2300 on this site is a major reason I gave it consideration, but the audition is why I bought it. Similar scenario with the Gold Lions displacing the JJ ECC803s tubes (which I was content with). Majority opinion here was an influence in my giving them a shot; my opinion, however, is what will keep them in the 2300 or remove them.

As for the Sovteks, I passed up a sale last week in order to spend time getting a better take on them. I'll check the Brent Jessee site, possibly look at other sources, then decide. I sense some weariness with the process, and am thinking this will wrap up at some point, meaning I might just put the JJs back into the 2300 and call it a day, try the Sovteks hoping they can provide the best of both worlds (JJs and GLs), or go after that C52.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm an inveterate researcher, so I'm planning to check the website out.

Due to a generous offer by AA member rnrmf1971, a pair of Psvanes are on their way for me to audition. I have read mostly good things about these, and so we'll see what they're about in my setup.

And I've come to the conclusion that, dual-purpose though my setup is, I'll be focusing more on how the Psvanes (or any tube) perform in HT mode. When I entertain, it's video: concert DVDs and BDs, and the occasional movie. So the usual demo suspects will be out when the Psvanes go in.

The Psvanes arrived yesterday afternoon. I installed them later, removing the Gold Lions and, after dealing with a PC sag (again), fired up the system.

First impression after 1:57 of listening: the Psvanes were good. I played some of my usual demo material, and on Yes' "Heart of the Sunrise" from Yes Live at Montreau the bass was reminiscent of the JJ ECC803s, weight included. Whether it's the same or not I'm not sure. The JJs might have a tad more, due to their low end being more forward; I'd need to put the JJs back in to tell. But it was very satisfying. One difference with every other tube I've used so far was Steve Howe's guitar; on this track the guitar was more prominent, as if it had been pulled forward or turned up in the mix. The top end wasn't as hard-sounding as with the GLs, something I took note of as well. Not as smooth as the JJs perhaps, but I didn't feel the need to turn down the volume to compensate. Here and there I was more aware of the keyboards too, as the lines running under the music were more apparent at times. On "Your Move/I've Seen All Good People" the organ chords before the transition were satisfying though not quite as hefty as I remember them with the JJs. Again, i might need to re-install the JJs to be sure.

On "Them Changes" from Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood Live at Madison Square Garden the kick drum was great, no complaints. Again, it seemed Steve Winwood's rhythm guitar was a bit more present under Clapton's solo. And with Apache from Jeff Beck's Rock n' Roll Party the opening drumbeat was nice and full, leading edge easy to make out. Other tracks were pretty solid too.

So a good first impression for the Psvanes. But I will still give them the customary 25–30 hours before making final decisions.

I've read many post about the Psvanes sounding amazing, but not lasting at all.

Based on the sound you are looking for, you may like the tubes I use:

Tungsram 12AX7 / ECC83

But, they are expensive.... Many reviewers have said it lasts between 5000-10000 hrs tough, so one pair will suffice for your listening habits.

I have 4 NOS Tungsram 12ax7's as well and for me, they sounded too vintage in my system. They were very "tubey." It's definitely nice if that's what works in your system, but they sounded congested and nasal sounding in mine.
They seem unique compared to new production tubes although I thought they most resembled the JJ 12ax7 sound, with additional density to the sound.
Nonetheless, the purchase kind of prompted me to get away from tubes, altogether.

If you don't know where to toss the "tubey" sound tubes.....

I have extra room at home. :D



Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

Me too but I'm now second choice. BTW the Tungsram tubes is one of the best tubes ever made. Just sayin...

Ha! I probably will part with them. They have an hour or so on them, tops.

I hit my first speed bump with the Psvanes. Playing some '60s tunes from the compilation Rock 'n Roll Relix, put out by Polygram in 1996, the sound was bright enough to be somewhat annoying. I turned it down a little and it was okay. True, material from that era is often bright to begin with, but if a tube can render such things more listenable I'm all for it.

What I might do, after the Psvanes get their 30 hours (15:23 currently), is put the JJs back in and play the same material. Other than this one potential hiccup, the Psvanes have been quite good.

Charles.......You obviously chose the wrong Psvane 12AX7 tubes. This is the one you should have purchased. . :roflmao:



https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7567/2...beea4d26d9.jpg

Nah, the logo's in the wrong place.

Charles.......Never mind where the Psvane logo is, this is definitely your tube. You want more bass just turn down the treble. You want a brighter top end, turn it up. This Psvane tube is only available in China, but I am positive they can be special ordered. You REALLY need a pair of these. . :laughin:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7567/2...beea4d26d9.jpg

Dan,

If all the threads I have read about this tube are true, then this will be the only pair he will have to replace very soon without reaching the break-in period since it will just reach the break period. :D

:lmao: :roflmao:

Somehow, I just can't see that tone dial in green :D.

BUT SERIOUSLY . . .

Mike.......I have no experience with the Psvane 12AX7 tube, although I have had experience with other "Made In China" 12AX7 tubes made in the factory where the Psvane's were made. They were McIntosh branded tubes that came with my C2300 preamp. I can't speak of their reliability because they did not please my ear and were replace in short order with Gold Lion gold pin 12AX7's. The McIntosh "Made In China" tubes have been stored and gathering dust for years. McIntosh finally came to their senses and now uses McIntosh branded tubes made at the JJ Tubes factory in Russia.

I have not heard whether the small low voltage Psvane tube have the same reliability issues as the Psvane power tubes. I have read many comments about the Psvane power tubes not delivering longevity, with many early failures. I will not purchase Chinese tubes no matter how fancy the logo or box they arrive in, but I recognize not everyone shares the same few.

I spent some time this afternoon to Photoshop the Psvane 12AX7 just for Charles. Considering he has yet to discover a vacuum tube the encompasses precisely what he seeks, I thought a 12AX7 with a built in tone control would be right up his alley. Guess not. :D

This is now official. After the Psvanes I will put the JJs back in and see what I think. If they don't come across as bright on the same material (I doubt they will, but we need to be sure), then they're my primary tube going forward, for as long as I keep the 2300. They were in the 2300 long enough for me to get used to their sound and become my reference. I might still buy the Psvanes from rnrmf1971 though, because they are good (brightness complaint notwithstanding). Perhaps I need to try a greater variety of material going forward, though, because until Rock 'n Roll Relix, I had nothing to complain about with the Psvanes.

The trick will be finding/making time to sit and listen, as opposed to playing background music while I cook or do other things.

The Psvanes inched past 25 hours this weekend; I haven't had real opportunity to play the system since Sunday PM. Though I said I'd give them 30 hours, I doubt another 4 hours will make a difference in the sound. Perhaps this weekend I'll get a chance to switch the JJs back in for comparison. It's good to have go-to material you're very familiar with.

I still find it interesting that choice of tube let me hear differences with interconnects and vice versa.

Last night I was listening to the system, and again ran into the need to turn down the volume some to listen comfortably. Materials were the new Santana CD and one of my reference DVDs. Overall, I have 27:19 on the Psvanes. I replaced the Psvanes with the JJs that were in there previously. I'll plan to reconnect the preamp today and listen for a few hours during the week as time permits.

I begin to understand both the fun and frustration of tube rolling, as I've found different results with the various tubes I've tried. The Mullards and Amperexes were both very clean-sounding to my ears, the lack of low-end punch being my complaint on them. The Amperexes seemed more midrange-forward, which I wasn't used to but had no complaint about. And they and the Mullards didn't have me turning the volume down; the Gold Lions and Psvanes did. And as chronicled earlier, with the Mullards in the 2300 I heard differences between my Kimber Hero and Transparent Plus interconnects, the Plus smoothing out the sound with CDs and DVDs.

We go forward and see what happens.

This past Sunday I was again listening to NPR, specifically "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" with the 2300's volume set to 42; that is where it often is for most "serious" listening. At times, when announcer Bill Curtis spoke I had a sense that perhaps there was too much low end. His voice seemed weightier than it needed to be. That sense didn't last but it was there. And again, watching the Extended Edition of Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice (better than the theatrical version, by the way) in a spot or two the same sense came up.

As I've said, the JJs have a full, weighty bottom which is slightly forward. Could this be, depending upon the material, too much of a good thing? And as for the bright '60s stuff that I found difficult with the Psvanes and Gold Lions, I don't remember giving the Mullards or Amperexes a chance with that. Not that they'd do better, but I don't recall playing that music with those tubes.

So the Telefunken Black Diamond tubes become an option, as they are supposedly more refined than the JJs I'm using. And since they're made in partnership with JJ, the sound should be similar. I may decide to give them a shot.

I just ordered a pair of the Telefunken Black Diamond tubes, taking advantage of Tube Depot's 10% off sale. It's my intent that this will be the last tube I order, in terms of additional brands. I think I have more than enough (Mullards, Amperexes, Gold Lions, JJs) to work with if I decide to keep my 2300.

I know that these Telefunkens are made in partnership with JJ, so I would expect them to sound somewhat similar to JJs, perhaps even the ones I have now, which are the hi-performance gold pin version. We'll see, though. Listening will tell the tale. They are burned in before leaving the factory, so it shouldn't take long for me to have a sense of what they are.

I'm definitely interested in what you think of those Black Diamond tubes. I haven't heard them and I'm curious how they compare with JJ's.

I would not expect new Telefunkens to sound like the originals. The only thing the same is the name. They are not made in the same factory by the same people on the same tooling. It's a different tube.
Find a good set of originals to try. I know if you look at the usual places to get tubes, they can be outrageously priced. There must be surplus electronics stores and some kind of audio clubs or societys in Brooklyn. Start looking around and asking folks. Find some like minded people in your area. I have audio friends, we swap stuff back and forth all the time. If I want to try a particular tube, one of my friends will most likely have something I can try out.
Probably this week, we haven't set a date yet, I'm driving 20 or 25 miles to see a member of another forum. I have a set of Super Tweeters that he would like to try on a set of Bozak Concert Grands that he runs on Mac tube monoblocks similar to my Mac monoblocks. I have MC40's and I think he has MC60's. I get to meet a member that I have chatted with online for the past few years and I get to hear a set of legendary speakers. Sounds like it will be a fun evening.

I was going to PM you about an AK meetup in North Jersey Sept 17th, near public transportation for you city folks but I guess I have to be a subscriber? Or am I missing where to PM you?

BillWojo

BillWojo.......Private Messaging is one of many benefits available to Subscribers.

If you would like to become a Subcsriber and help support Audio Aficionado follow this link: http://www.audioaficionado.org/payments.php

The Black Diamonds shipped Monday. I'm hoping I can get them in time for the weekend.

I just dropped over $1K on a Jazz at Lincoln Center subscription, so for now at least, no more new audio stuff if it's more than a few bucks! The modest cost of these tubes is about all I can stomach for a while.

Good for you. :thumbsup:
Which series did you go for? The Max Roach one looks good (along with a dozen or more others).

I went for a package of individual concerts. Six, in fact, plus one bought separately. Looking at the schedule again, there's one or two concerts I'd like to add. Totally unnecessary, but I might. The concerts I bought tickets for are:

Handful of Keyes: A Century of Jazz Piano
Elio Villafranca's Letters to Mother Africa
The Jazz Age: Untamed Elegance
The Swing Era: Revolution in Rhythm
Rosa Passos Quartet w. Special Guest Kenny Barron
Lucky Peterson: Roots of Acoustic Blues
'Round Midnight: Monk's Legacy

The first, third and fourth are the JALC Orchestra with special guests. The first and last on that list include performances by Joey Alexander, an amazing thirteen (yes, thirteen) year-old jazz prodigy, who's especially fond of Monk.

The next challenge will be to find someone(s) to go to these with, and to manage my money going forward. The Christmas holidays are coming.

Speaking of Christmas, it came a bit early. Today, I received the absolutely awesome apple cake from the Vermont Country Store (shipped directly from the bakery!) AND the Telefunken Black Diamond tubes. I hope to install them this weekend. Given the weather forecast, I'll be indoors for most of it.

Let me check those dates. If interested, would be nice to meet another member and take in some live music. Been too long since I've done so in the city.

Still at work (usually home now). I installed the Telefunkens on Saturday and seem to have a few minutes. They have about 7 hours on them.

First off, they don't sound like the JJs, leading me to wonder if JJ built them to Telefunken's specs, rather than something that's essentially a JJ tube which Telefunken then "massaged" to get what they wanted. The Telefunkens are not as warm, first off, and are crisper (more open?) on top. Brass has a nice bite to it; it's maybe a bit more bite than the Psvanes and GLs had.

But as soon as I heard that, I thought there'd be a problem with the brighter '60s material which was the downfall of the GLs and Psvanes. Yes, the CDs in question are bright to begin with, and I don't think any tube can solve that, but the warmer the tube, the more this brightness is mitigated. Wilson Pickett's In the Midnight Hour was pretty well unlistenanable at my normal listening volume (42 on the C2300), and it almost hurt to hear the saxophones; another track or two was close to unlistenable. I was squinting my eyes at one point, as if sound were light. The tone controls were no help, as they dampened everything when I turned them down enough to make a difference on the top end.

The bottom end was satisfying as I went through my usual demo suspects. Not as hefty as the JJs, but satisfying enough that I didn't miss the JJ's bottom too much, despite the Telefunkens being a smidge less weighty. The Psvanes were similar in that regard.

This whole scenario brings to mind a couple of things. I remember at the C2300's audition that the Audio Research LS27 I compared it to had a darker sound, which tamed some of the top end better than the 2300 (the system was bright overall, and the 2300 had stock tubes in it). The LS3 I used prior to the 2300 never gave me any pause as far as the sound being too bright (there was a Byrds LP that was noticeably bright, but that's about it). Given that, and I admit this hasn't been thought out fully yet, it seems as if there are three options: reinstall the JJs and be done with it; 2) go through the tubes I didn't play the brighter material with (Mullards) just to be thorough, in case they do better and I decide I can live with the lighter bottom end; or 3) get a new preamp, either an ARC or one with an equalizer (C52). That last option is least likely, but is not impossible. The Telefunkens were burned in at the factory (100 hours?) so I don't think they're going to show me much more than they have, but I may still give them another 20 hours or so, to be fair.

One, two and four are spoken for, as I found dates for them; waiting to hear on the others. But that's not a bad idea.

I'm thinking about going to the upcoming NY Audio show, though with my schedule I'd have to go on Friday.

I was interested in the Telefunkens for my guitar setup as I like JJ's in that capacity. I spent some time reading reviews, last week, and your review aligns with what the guitar players were saying - compared to the JJ's, the Tele 12ax7 tubes were cooler and brighter. They weren't that well thought of.
Conversely, the amplifier tubes are supposed to be darker and have a stronger, more defined low end compared to their JJ counterparts and people liked those.
I'm surprised that the sound varies in opposite ways between the Tele and JJ tubes.

The Black Diamonds are cryogenically treated. Would that affect the sound this way? My understanding is that cryogenics are more about durability.

I'm not sure. I was always under the impression, perhaps, incorrectly, that cryo treating tubes would make them less bright, less noisy, and more focused.