Hello Bart,

One thing I have noticed is that I heard the differences between my interconnects more clearly as a result of the interaction with the tubes. With the same Mullards installed the Kimber Hero comes across as having more bottom than the AQ King Cobra. Hero's reputation includes a good bottom end, but I'm not sure I noticed it before using my previous AR solid-state LS3 preamp; in fact I thought the reverse was true. But I also didn't notice the Hero having a bright top end so much either. Audio Research preamps have a darker sound than Macs, in my experience, so that may account for this. But that extra brightness with the Hero/Mullard combo was missing with the KC/Mullard combo; it sounded smoother on top.

And I still haven't tried the Gold Lions I bought. That would be my next step if the JJs turn out to not be a good match. If these JJs I just put in are the one unused pair I had, they'll need 30 hours or so to break in and I'll have to try them on other sources.

Three things have happened since the last post, and I am struck by how tubes and interconnects can go together. I removed the Mullards from the 2300 and re-installed the JJ ECC803s tubes I had in there before. They are a bit warmer than the Mullards and tamed that hard upper edge the Hero had. But, having run experiments with the one pair of Transparent MusicLink Plus ICs (now called simply "Plus" in the Gen 5 series), I bought a pair of Transparent Audio Plus ICs and put them on my BD player. Their smoother sound over the Kimber Hero led me to put a pair on my SACD player also.

The Transparents are a bit stiffer than the Kimbers, probably due to the solid-core conductors. They may have a heavier gauge too, though I'm not sure. But there is the perception that low-level information is a bit more present with them, and that's a plus (no pun intended). The JJs also have this reputation, at least in the Tube Depot's website description:

For Audiophiles - Combining a noise canceling spiral wound filament with oversized plates and rugged construction, this tube provides a forward sounding, full-bodied low end response with a weighty, dynamic midrange easily compared to the Telefunken ECC803s. Its high end response is controlled yet warm with a very pleasant depth of field that extends the full sonic landscape. This tube is perfect as the first gain stage in most HiFi audio equipment. Especially useful for taming brittle digital sources such as MP3, CD and DVD players.

Devoid of harshness, this tube is easily the most listenable preamp tube in production. And with hand selected quality and solid, proven performance, it is a wonderfully refreshing addition to the 12AX7 family of tubes. Your equipment will take on new character across the entire audio spectrum once you install this tube. This tube gets our vote as one of the best new tubes in production today.

My listening experience suggests this description is accurate. Some recordings are just bright/hard and that's it, but I think they'd be even less listenable with the previous Kimber/Mullard combo. The Essential Heart CD set is a case in point. I had to turn the volume down to make "Magic Man" more enjoyable; without doing that I was distracted from the song by the sound. So I'll need to play material besides my "test" stuff I use for evaluations. And It's time to play LPs; I haven't in a while.

I haven't done a lot of tube rolling other than from suggestions by the manufacturer/designer of my tube equipment (Absolares).

Without a doubt, the tube rolling experience is entertaining and there are some tubes that are simply magical.

But for a given set of components, I have found that the biggest impact to the sound quality in my system, bigger than tube rolling, has been eliminating the noise in the computer music server from various sources, including the operating system, storage media, and just as importantly, if not more importantly, the quality of the power supply to the SSDs and sound card.

Adding a quality linear power supply produced an improvement that was not subtle in the least: It was an order of magnitude increase in the sound quality.

Musical selections that previously had a slight harshness to it, that required as you have noted, a reduction in volume, are now enjoyable at even higher volumes. Reducing the noise in the power supply improved all of the typical audiophile indicators (e.g., soundstage, transparency, dynamics etc) and resulted in a very relaxed, natural, musical and engaging sound.

The effect of reducing noise from the power supply has been an eye opening realization.

We tend to use cables and tubes as a way to tame or redirect the noise present in our systems; but it appears that keeping it from getting into the system in the first place produces an even greater improvement.

Of course YMMV. My apologies in advance if this reply is off topic.

Actually, my iMac computer shares the same line as my system, though not connected to it. My computer setup is plugged into a Tripplite unit, even as the system is plugged into Furman conditioners. I don't hear anything I could identify as line noise when listening/viewing; things are pretty quiet.The Heart CD mentioned before is a compilation, and "Magic Man" is a mid-70s song. It's just a bright recording, no line noise as the culprit on that.

I'm not a tube roller at heart; too much hassle. I like the sound I have now, and the only reason I can see to open the 2300 again is if I need to replace a tube or curiosity overwhelms and I decide to try the Gold Lions.

I played that Heart CD again, and "Magic Man" didn't sound as bright this time. That may be due to the new power cord on the 2300, a WW Electra. In limited use with the new cord, it looks as if I may have found my setup's sweet spot. Perhaps I'll want to avoid silver in my setup, at least on components.

After several weeks, I think the JJs I'm using are indeed my sweet spot. Despite the presence of Gold Lions, I still have no urge to replace the JJs. If anyone's ever done a comparison between GL B759 and JJ ECC803s tubes, what are your impressions? For now, the synergy of the JJs, Transparent Plus ICs, and WW Electra PC on the preamp have me in a happy place. Though I have yet to play anything on a non-Transparent IC source (laserdisc, LP, tuner) I'm sure the sound will be comparable.

The Gold Lions would seem to be the natural alternative to the JJ tubes as they have similar sound characteristics in general (based upon my understanding of the descriptions I've read of each), but I'm not putting them in my 2300 on a lark or just because they cost more. They may well be next up if I move on from the JJs for any reason, though.

Ok, I'll ask. Just what is it about Gold Lion tubes that has almost everyone so high on them? I'm thinking about giving them a try in my 2300, believe it or not.

Do it, they are very affordable, wait about 100 hrs and make the decision.

:thumbsup:

I have decided to put the Gold Lions into the 2300 and see what happens. I plan to do this at the next best opportunity, possibly this weekend. It's not because I don't like the JJs in there now (very musical) or Mullards, but I did some research and decided to go for this. I'm hoping they'll be as smooth as the JJs and give me the bottom end I like. The GLs will be somewhat more open than the JJs I suspect, not quite as warm, so that may play well for the overall sound. We'll see what happens.

As usual, I want to give them at least a month before any big decisions are made, and will stop counting hours after I hit 30.

Alright. The famous Gold Lion tubes went in this afternoon. They will get at least the minimum one month in there; I may just leave them in. I don't think I'll be doing anything more in the way of tubes, except perhaps to get some el cheap ones for the MM and MC inputs when the stock tubes give out. For the line section, it's up to those I have.

After only 2:37 on them, the GLs are crisper than the JJs, and not as warm. I do hope they smooth out as things move forward, though.

The Gold Lions have 13:37 on them, and the last session (Wednesday) showed they're not kind to older material at this point. Most of my CDs aren't audiophile-approved, and with the 60's material I played last time, the sound was brighter than I'd like. I actually had to turn down the volume, the Chicago Transit Authority CD especially so; I never had to do that with the JJs. Perhaps I got used to the JJ tubes' warm character, and this GL thing is still new. They don't have enough hours on them yet, in addition. I know they need at least 30 hours on them before I can assess seriously, and I'm planning to give them at least that.

Many here have GLs. How has your experience with them been, start to current?

Wait until they reach 100 hrs to get better, at 200 hrs will be fully settled.

I remember in the beginning, It lacked all bass and they sounded very bright too.

If by 200 hrs, you don't like them, go back to JJs.

Well, no hours on the GLs tonight. The 2300 quit on me about ten minutes ago. I have an e-mail in to Mcintosh.

I got the 2300 back on April 5. The microprocessor board was shot, the result of too many static charges, probably. So the preamp now has a new "brain."

Since its return, I'm up to 20:24 on the GLs, plus whatever time was burned on them during the repairs and testing. I'm thinking to replace the stock tubes in the phono section, since they're much older than the GLs. I don't play records much these days and I use the preamp as a line stage anyway, so I'm not that willing to put my "good" tubes in there. I'd consider buying some inexpensive placeholders (there are $10 JJs available, as well as $9 Sinos; I'm not familiar with the Sinos).

Next session I should pull out a CD or two that was bright-sounding before, such as Chicago Transit Authority, and see if things have mellowed any.

Charles.......Glad the new microprocessor got your C2300 up and running again. That's the first microprocessor failure I have heard about in a C2300. Might be time to consider installing a high grade whole home surge suppressor on your electrical service panel. It's a small price to pay for the protection it affords your audio components, as well as every other electronic and electrical appliance in your house.

At barely 20+ hours on your Gold Lion 12AX7 tubes I think you are being a bit over zealous thinking that they are anywhere near broken in and that somehow their sonic signature has permanently settled to a place where you can make a critical decision on their sound. Somewhere between 75 and 100 hours is more like it, and as Jerome suggested, 200 hours is a certainty that you are getting the best the Gold Lions have to offer. Hoping that an additional 7 hours on the tubes from your last report of being unenthused will somehow magically make everything better is premature at best. Play the C2300 as much as possible, log the hours necessary, then make your decision about the Gold Lion tube's performance. The C2300 has treble and bass controls that you can adjust during the break-in process to ease what ails your ears. Take advantage of them.
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I wouldn't expect them to be broken in completely yet, but would be curious if there was a difference in the sound based upon having played some other stuff a couple days ago that didn't sound bright. The CTA CD is somewhat bright anyway, which I never noticed with the warmer JJs. If I put CTA on again anytime soon and it sounds better, that means things are headed in the right direction and I have more to look forward to. Some of the time logged since the 2300's return was with blu-rays/DVDs, using some of my usual references. I didn't notice any brightness there. Alan White's cymbals on Yes: Live at Montreaux had a nice crispness to them. I agree there's a ways to go, however.

This raises another question. Technetronics kept the unit an extra week to run more tests. That means the unit was on for an unknown amount of time. I don't know what those tests were, but would those hours count toward break-in, or is break-in specific to musical signals only? My total is for only the time I log on the GLs in my setup.

Have "Heart" on both CD & vinyl and the CD is bright by comparison. Rolling tubes to tame a "hot" CD could be an expensive and time consuming pursuit.

Charles.......I would consider any time the C2300 was on during testing as break-in time. There's only one way to break-in tubes and gear.......play it.

You mean you wouldn't consider it so, correct? And I agree, unless they were playing music (which I don't know). Or did I misunderstand you completely?

I think breaking in a tube isn't the same as life/hours on the tube. Another 1:41 was put on them last night, watching more DVD/BD clips (21:54 total now). And unlike previously, when I stopped counting after 25 hours, I think I'll keep track of the hours on the GLs for longer. The general character of a tube is pretty much evident after 25 to 30 hours, but the tube's sound takes longer to develop; that's my takeaway from comments here and elsewhere on the forum.

Why don't you just leave it running with the amplifiers turned off?

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Kinda like the saying on a car : Drive it like you Stole it... Play it Like you Stole... Beat on it a little will surely not hurt! :)

Very nice and congrats...

The system is on, and the tuner's going (NPR). Listening to Jonathan Schwartz earlier, the music he played sounded quite good. "Hey Jude" in particular was really clean, detailed and clear. I heard stuff in it I hadn't heard before. Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me was what it is. The theme music to All Things Considered was a bit lacking, in that the big drum didn't have the weight or impact it's had with other tubes. But, the GLs in the line stage don't have a ton of hours on them, less than twenty-five as I type.

I'm up to 34 hours, and as I've begun to play my reference material, I notice that the low end is missing the weight and impact I was used to with the JJ tubes. Last time out, it was as if the low end were turned down and moved to the back of the mix or something. There's a bit of impatience brewing, but krustycat suggests these GLs need at least 100 hours to really show themselves; 200 to settle in fully. If the bottom will fill in more, great. If not, I still have the JJs. I'll be leaving the GLs in a bit longer, to give them more of a chance. Other than the thin low end, they sound quite good.

I could leave the preamp on overnight, but would rather not go there in case something goes wrong.

Leave it on playing music with the amplifiers in standby.

Nothing should go wrong.

Think positively.

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It's not a bad idea, but I don't know. I'm just not comfortable with leaving things on overnight. Never have been. The only exception is the fan I use for white noise in my bedroom.

While I don't think it's necessary to post every time I put an hour or two on the GLs, I will say that last night I played them some, and the total is now 36:39. The impression was that of a "shy" low end. The earlier comments about the GLs lacking low-frequency weight and impact still hold, but now and then last night that low end would jump up or step forward a bit and say, "I'm here!" Perhaps a sign of things to come? Or, what I may be hearing is simply the GL's presentation in the process of refining; they may never offer the weight and impact the JJs do. We will see. The low end is important because I have a dual-purpose system, and it's with the video side that the deficiency shows most.

As for material used last night, a blu-ray of Thor: The Dark World and the Jeff Beck Rock & Roll Party DVD.

At this pace, it will take months for your GLs to reach 200 hrs.

The good thing is, if you keep the GLs, it may last you forever.

The tubes I have are considered to last in theory from 5000-8000 hrs. or even more.

Don't remember the life expectancy of the GLs though.

I left the c2500 on for 24/7 1 week and that was all I needed to hear a difference, in the beginning sounded too bright, no punch at all.

Mike.......That gave me a good chuckle. If Charles takes as long to break in the Gold Lion tubes as he took to decide on purchasing the C2300, the 12AX7's should be broke in about June of next year. :D

Remember, I missed a little over two weeks with the 2300 out of service and at the shop (3/19–4/5).

But my schedule doesn't allow long listening sessions that often. So it may be a while getting to 100 hours, indeed. As for sound, I didn't find the Gold Lions bright out of the box, but did become aware of the light low end. I'm hoping that changes with more time on them.

Impressions may change depending upon the source material, perhaps.

I'm now at 45:13, and have noted that while playing some of my DVD reference material it was helpful to turn down the volume on my 2300 due to the sound being somewhat bright; I noticed this when the Mullards were in there and Kimber Hero was the IC on my BDP, but the BDP has Transparent Plus now. My tentative conclusion was that the Gold Lion tubes are less forgiving than the JJs (probably because they aren't as warm). I suppose it's also possible they're still finding their way, so to speak, sound-wise.

As far as the GL low end, perhaps it's simply a different presentation. Last night it was a bit more satisfying, though at times still lacked the weight and fullness of the JJs. I wouldn't notice these things in all likelihood if I didn't use the same core of reference discs. I try to play at least one thing from the reference material every session.

Yeah, 100 hrs. on tubes is a very good place to start. Keep us posted. Interesting thread.

I'd agree with both of these points. I'm now looking for the best overall setup without going into tube chasing. I don't want to strip the screws on the C2300's top by frequent tube rolls, either.

The JJs are my base reference. I'd say the GLs and Mullards are both more open than the JJs, but so far haven't given me the consistent bottom end the JJs do. The experiment continues.

The stereo is on right now (NPR) and the opening theme to All Things Considered still didn't have the same level of thump as with the JJs. The TED Radio Hour just came on. I'll switch to something else or catch the end of the Mets game on TV instead. The GLs are past 50 hours now.

The bass could just be tighter.

Quite possible, but it's also not as loud. It's as if the low frequencies were turned or mixed down relative to the others. I did notice an improvement in impact last night, though. Still not to what the JJs are, but more satisfying than before. Fanfare for the Common Man's big drums showed up a bit more last night. I hope that trend continues.

And maybe I'll try paying attention to the tightness of the bass. Friday night, Tal Wilkenfeld's bass solo on "Cause We've Ended as Lovers" from Jeff Beck's Live at Ronnie Scott's seemed more tuneful than I remember; I also made out a note or two more than before.

Charles.......Have you ever considered that the JJ's warm sound, as you described it, compared to the Gold Lion's might be due to a softer rolled off top end on the JJ's? That would naturally make the JJ's bass sound more prominent in relationship to the upper frequencies, thus making the JJ's sound as though they have more bass. It may simply be that the Gold Lions have a wider frequency response without the rolled off top end, so you think the bass is not as fat as the JJ's, but in actuality the bass is true to the tube's full range frequency response. Just sayin'..... :scratch2:

Sounds good to me.:thumbsup:

I will share some observations from my last listening session. It occurred to me that what I'm hearing from the Gold Lions is a greater and more balanced dynamic range than with the JJs. That (along with being less warm) accounts for the crisper upper-end sound I hear. It may also explain why some recordings have seemed brighter on top than with the JJs.

The JJs are weightier in the bass and the mids as well, since their range is tilted that way, thus they sound fuller and more impactful on bottom. It also explains why they're smoother on top with those bright-sounding (with the GLs and Mullards) recordings mentioned above. The bottom end is also more forward, enhancing the sense of greater weight.

This is coming from a borderline audiophile who still doesn't characterize himself as a tube person. But, it lines up somewhat with Dan's suggestion regarding a rolled-off top end with the JJs; their range is limited in that way. Two different presentations, each with its own merits. The GLs (and Mullards, when they were in the 2300) tend to sound a bit more "live" at times than the JJs; the JJs may play better with video in some ways because of that bottom end. I want to give the GLs their 100 hours before making any real decisions, though.

For what it's worth, at least you are hearing differences with the different tubes, and that is what is most important, you have something to go by. Lot's of people do not hear these things. Enjoy!

Charles.......Well, hopefully by Christmas you'll have at least 80 hours on the Gold Lions. :roflmao:

:yes::D:D