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-   -   PS Audio DirectStream DAC (https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=25526)

PLK 02-26-2014 02:51 PM

PS Audio DirectStream DAC
 
http://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/up...rectStream.pdf

antipop 02-26-2014 04:26 PM

Wow that sounds interesting ! I didn't understand half of it but I'm looking forward to what it will be.

My favorite piece of the release is "Upgrades: PS Audio provides an aggressive upgrade program for all PerfectWave DAC owners to convert their existing units to the new DirectStream standard."

They could just have killed the PerfectWave and forced everyone to buy new units but they allow us to upgrade and stay up to date. I highly value when a company offers this option. I was going to upgrade to MkII so I guess I'll wait on to see what it brings.

antipop 02-26-2014 04:37 PM

Regarding the upgrade :
Quote:

The upgrade replaces all three boards and the transformer inside, so unfortunately it's the majority of what's in the PWD itself. All that remains is the chassis and the front panel display. Upgrades will cost $2995. Or, you can get $2K trade in for the PWD and get a brand new DirectStream for $3995.

2fastdriving 02-26-2014 08:05 PM

Isn't that what the Esoteric "upsample to DSD" does?

o0OBillO0o 02-26-2014 08:38 PM

To DSD or Not to DSD, That Is The Question: PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC v Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series | AudioStream

Good article around this topic.

My interest is peaked!

redm 02-26-2014 08:47 PM

Exciting times, it was about time for an update. I wish the pwd had better buffering of content, it's very finicky about any latency on the network.

Murrayb 02-26-2014 10:40 PM

I have a PerfectWave Dac II and am extremely happy with it. It's a great sounding DAC. Sounds like the DirectStream is a big step up from it. Disappointed that they won't be releasing a new ethernet bridge which solves the gapless playback issue with the current bridge. That is the only connection that I use since I stream everything from my computer and it's not feasible to have the computer near the DAC to be able to use a USB connection. Can't wait to hear feedback from early purchasers. If it is as good as PS Audio is claiming, may be upgrading in a few months.

HiFiGuy528 02-27-2014 01:50 AM

very interesting DAC. Look forward to its release.

redm 02-27-2014 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o (Post 584650)

Interesting that PS Audio says PCM is the issue, and Berkley says PCM is the solution. :confused-2:

doggiehowser 02-27-2014 02:42 AM

I suspect both are right in their own ways.

Both PCM and DSD represents different ways of interpreting and processing the data, each with their own unique shortcomings.

If you can fix those shortcomings of one way, it'd seem that that approach is better. Something like saying everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer :)

That said, I find myself in agreement more with the DSD camp that companies like dCS EMM and Playback subscribe to.

redm 02-27-2014 10:26 AM

It looks like all the user facing functionality is going to be exactly the same. I wish they would spend some more time polishing up the firmware and existing features.

PLK 02-27-2014 02:50 PM

Part one:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7z7QXWto-k]PS DirectStream DAC World Premier - YouTube[/ame]

redm 02-27-2014 03:18 PM

Neat video, I wonder if the UI is the exact same to the PWD.

-E- 02-27-2014 03:49 PM

/yawn.

Very inflammatory first page.

We'll see what the final product looks like. But transcoding has yet to yield any good results - anywhere.

antipop 02-27-2014 04:22 PM

They look really proud of the Directstream and they're setting expectations very high.

I hope it's not just marketing and that they will deliver.

2fastdriving 02-27-2014 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antipop (Post 584833)
They look really proud of the Directstream and they're setting expectations very high.

I hope it's not just marketing and that they will deliver.

I'm guessing marketing hype. Unless someone proves to me that this is different, I'm going to assume this is the same as what the Esoteric does - convert PCM to DSD and send to the DAC natively that way. The ironic thing is, nobody that I know of uses that option on the Esoteric because it doesn't sound as good :scratch2:

adhesiv 02-27-2014 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving (Post 584844)
I'm guessing marketing hype. Unless someone proves to me that this is different, I'm going to assume this is the same as what the Esoteric does - convert PCM to DSD and send to the DAC natively that way. The ironic thing is, nobody that I know of uses that option on the Esoteric because it doesn't sound as good :scratch2:

That's because there's no lossless conversion between the two formats. By doing this they are guaranteeing loss of fidelity.

I agree that it's mostly marketing hype. But as with all things more exposure to DSD means more user adoption, more content and more attention by all brands.

So I say bring it on and keep it coming!

PLK 02-27-2014 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving (Post 584844)
I'm guessing marketing hype. Unless someone proves to me that this is different, I'm going to assume this is the same as what the Esoteric does - convert PCM to DSD and send to the DAC natively that way. The ironic thing is, nobody that I know of uses that option on the Esoteric because it doesn't sound as good :scratch2:

MDAT™ signal processing technology in EMM and Meitner DACs does 2x DSD upsampling for PCM playback.

I think the Playback Design DACs also upsample PCM to DSD.

2fastdriving 02-27-2014 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLK (Post 584906)
MDAT™ signal processing technology in EMM and Meitner DACs does 2x DSD upsampling for PCM playback.

I think the Playback Design DACs also upsample PCM to DSD.

So what's new here with the PS Audio? Is it claimed to be a lossless translation to DSD?

doggiehowser 02-27-2014 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving (Post 584910)
So what's new here with the PS Audio? Is it claimed to be a lossless translation to DSD?

They claim upsampling to 10xDSD vs 2x on the EMM and Playback. I love my EMM and Playback.

PLK 02-27-2014 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving (Post 584910)
So what's new here with the PS Audio? Is it claimed to be a lossless translation to DSD?

"DirectStream DAC converts all incoming data including PCM to 1-bit DSD using their own code implemented in a Spartan VI FPGA. Chips need not apply."

“The choice of a FPGA over a DAC chip was easy. FPGA’s allow as much or little full width math to be used as we need. Unlike typical small DAC chips, we’re not limited by the heat needed for intensive upsampling and other processing duties. We use more power and physical area to dissipate heat without conflicting with other functions on the board, most of all the analog output.

The Xilinx Spartan 6 FPGA allows complete freedom of processing power and clock choices: our design runs the input processing at 170MHz, the oversampling at 56MHz, and the output at 5.6MHz.”

-E- 02-27-2014 09:43 PM

And that, folks, is pure marketing gobbledegook.

A FPGA chip is still a "DAC chip." Trying to differentiate is beyond absurd.

PLK 02-27-2014 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -E- (Post 584933)
And that, folks, is pure marketing gobbledegook.

A FPGA chip is still a "DAC chip." Trying to differentiate is beyond absurd.

A FPGA is not strictly a DAC unless it has been programmed to function as one.

The DirectStream DAC maybe a good replacement for your non-USB, not-able-to-receive-a-192khz signal DAC.:smoking:

-E- 02-27-2014 10:35 PM

http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

PLK 02-27-2014 11:08 PM

-E-,

If you're happy with an old non-USB DAC that can't receive 192/24 or DSD, fine.

What's your problem with PS Audio?

Does it make you feel good to crap on a product that you haven't heard?

redm 02-27-2014 11:55 PM

Maybe we should take it down a notch and see how it sounds before we pass judgement, that's all that really matters.

doggiehowser 02-28-2014 04:38 AM

I may not own any PS Audio electronics at the moment but having heard the PerfectWave first gen a few years back, with the PW Transport and the Digital Lens network card, I honestly don't think Paul McGowan is a "marketing" guy per se. I read his blog periodically and find he talks a lot of sense. His PW DAC IMHO broke some new ground, especially with the digital lens add on.

His new DAC IMHO follows on from what designers like Ed Meitner and Andreas Koch have also adopted in the past and the premise of using a higher clock rate (to push the noise level to a higher band) is IMHO sound engineering principles.

In addition to EMM and Playback, which also use FPGAs, I have also heard the Chord QBD72 (the older non DSD model) which is another FPGA based design. It is also an incredible performer and was my dream DAC for a long time.

antipop 02-28-2014 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving (Post 584910)
So what's new here with the PS Audio? Is it claimed to be a lossless translation to DSD?

I also think they're bringing at a lower price point. I don't know the exact prices of the others but I remember they're in the 10k$ range.

I agree there is no need to fight on a product that's not released yet. I don't see PS Audio as a pure hype company and I hope they'll deliver with this one. All I can say is that they got my attention

Elberoth 02-28-2014 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLK (Post 584917)
The Xilinx Spartan 6 FPGA allows complete freedom of processing power and clock choices: our design runs the input processing at 170MHz, the oversampling at 56MHz, and the output at 5.6MHz.

That means the DAC runs at 2xDSD, and the 10xDSD mentioned earlier seems to be just a marketing claim.

There are quite a few DACs that do 2xDSD.

doggiehowser 02-28-2014 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elberoth (Post 585016)
That means the DAC runs at 2xDSD, and the 10xDSD mentioned earlier seems to be just a marketing claim. There are quite a few DACs that do 2xDSD.

The 10xDSD is the intermediate internal upsampled signal.

56MHz is 10x 5.6MHz

PLK 02-28-2014 01:45 PM

Part 2:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv1XWedFgDY]PS DirectStream Technical Talk - YouTube[/ame]

redm 02-28-2014 02:21 PM

Thanks PLK, Ted gave a good explanation of how the directstream differs. I only wish they would talk more about the UI and if it's changing as well.

-E- 02-28-2014 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLK (Post 584951)
-E-,

If you're happy with an old non-USB DAC that can't receive 192/24 or DSD, fine.

What's your problem with PS Audio?

Does it make you feel good to crap on a product that you haven't heard?

Post #24 yet again applies.

JemHadar 02-28-2014 03:28 PM

"Its secret is in its simplicity: Take a look at this comparison diagram: on the top is a block diagram of one of the best PCM-based processors in the world, the ESS Sabre DAC. Look at that nasty, circuitous path—then look at the pure simplicity of the DirectStream. The PCM processor’s tendency to mask music’s subtle details is largely due to its complex needs, and the technical requirements of PCM processors."

To equate performance of a circuit with the complexity of said circuit is at best ignorant but certainly misleading.

medwardo 02-28-2014 04:46 PM

I bought a PWD Mk I for $3K and then upgraded it to a Mk II for another $1K. Now perhaps another $3K to upgrade it again.

Makes me pause as the total is getting to $7K and I'm in MSB territory and within striking distance of a dCS Debussy.

Don't get me wrong, the PWD is a fine DAC, I've had it for a few years now, and I like it. PS Audio is a good company with solid products and customer service.

I'm not saying that the new PS Audio DAC is bad or good...just that the total is getting up there and there are other outstanding choices for that chunk of coin.

Now, maybe if the upgrade price were a bit lower....

redm 02-28-2014 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by medwardo (Post 585162)
I bought a PWD Mk I for $3K and then upgraded it to a Mk II for another $1K. Now perhaps another $3K to upgrade it again.

Makes me pause as the total is getting to $7K and I'm in MSB territory and within striking distance of a dCS Debussy.

Don't get me wrong, the PWD is a fine DAC, I've had it for a few years now, and I like it. PS Audio is a good company with solid products and customer service.

I'm not saying that the new PS Audio DAC is bad or good...just that the total is getting up there and there are other outstanding choices for that chunk of coin.

Now, maybe if the upgrade price were a bit lower....

Thats an interesting way of looking at it. I tend to see it as a glass half full, they are now selling a $6k unit and I can get it for 50% by upgrading. With other manufacturers, the value of my MKII would be immediately reduced and I probably wouldn't have such a good upgrade path.

If you did buy the MKI and upgrade, you have gotten many years of usage out of it whereas you would have been waiting to buy a dCS for years? I'm not sure you can compare 3 upgrades spread over years with just buying a much more expensive unit outright. If you are going to sell though, this is probably the best time. :)

PLK 02-28-2014 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -E- (Post 585137)
Post #24 yet again applies.

http://www.pmcaregivers.com/images/f...hamp_small.jpg

ChrisG 02-28-2014 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -E- (Post 584933)
And that, folks, is pure marketing gobbledegook.

A FPGA chip is still a "DAC chip." Trying to differentiate is beyond absurd.

welcome to Paul "hyperbole" McGowan's world. I fell for it when I bought the PWD mk1 since he sold me on The Bridge...which turned out didn't do gapless and they didn't even know what gapless was when beta testers (moi) pointed it out to him. After a year of "you'll have gapless next month" (and we never got it on the Bridge), I sold the f****er, went to Linn and haven't looked back. Sure the upgrade program is nice, but for all of the Bridge owners that got screwed, they should have fixed that first.

redm 03-02-2014 11:38 AM

TAS post on it, there isn't much to it..

John57 03-02-2014 10:24 PM

I am one of the CAS members that heard it at the meeting. The PS Audio demo was impressive. I personally do not own any PS Audio products at this time. When the opportunity arises again I had some new DDF files I discovered and PCM versions as well and to take another trip to PS Audio.


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