Seeking advice building stereo system with Sabrina X
 

Hi,

A new member here and I am a noob in the hi-fi audio world.

Recently, I got a chance to listen to Wilson Audio Alexx V and it opened my ears on how really great stereo system sounds like.
It is way out of my budget but it was a great fun nonetheless.

I also got a chance to listen to Sabrina X and my plan is to build a decent stereo system with Sabrina X as the foundation.

The listening rooms to consider:
1. W 11' x L 13.5' x H 10'. This is an empty bedroom atm and it has a window on the front wall.
2. W 12' x L 16' x H 12'. This is my office. If you are facing the front wall (the 12' wide wall), there are windows (with plantation shutters) on the left side and double glass door at the back to enter the room.
I plan to add acoustic treatment down the road.


Others:
* listening level: moderate db (80%) and higher (20%).
* genre: prog rock/metal (50%), blues, jazz, vocal and others (50%)
* source: digital only
* amp preference: leaning towards SS integrated.
* amp+dac budget: below $8k, don't mind used/demo unit.

The dealer matches Sabrina X with Dan D'Agostino Progression Integrated, while they sound good together, at $20k, the amp is out of my budget.


1. My plan is to use room # 1 to begin with, in the future, I may move it to room # 2. Due to the room size - I am concerned if a floorstander will overwelm the room - yet Sabrina X is not exactly huge.
Will Sabrina X overwelm such small rooms?

2. What is the optimum amp wpc range to drive Sabrina X for my room size and listening habits?
ref - Sabrina X impedance curve: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements
* In this thread - both Charles and metaphacts mentioned that MC275 (@75wpc) can't drive Sabrina X adequately.

To get the best out of Sabrina X, Charles suggested for tube - a minimum of 150 wpc or a SS of 400 wpc.
While metaphacts here mentioned that ARC i50 (@50wpc) is a match.

What could explain the seemingly very wide range of wpc recommendations?

* On the other hand, I was given an advice by someone at Wilson Audio that for the above room size, anything that can provide 80-150wpc (tube or SS) should be more than sufficient.

3. I do not have a lot of experience with different amps signatures sound, thus it is though for me to narrow down the companies too.
What questions would you ask one self to help narrow down an amp?

4. What is your thought on Sabrina X & Hegel H390 synergy?
Folks at Audio Excellence mentioned the Sabrina X and H390 pairing.

Rated at 250 wpc at 8ohms, it can almost double to 490 wpc at 4ohms.
The price is reasonable and it is convenient as it is integrated, comes with DAC, streamer, thus comes with everything that I need.

5. I am open to other suggestions for an amp that is outside of the budget if an argument can be made that the amp will have better synergy with Sabrina X than Hegel H390- thus saving me from upgrading in the future.
* McIntosh appears to be quite popular in this forum. I am curious if MA9000 will be a good match with Sabrina X.

6. Given the current climate, how much of a discount can one reasonably receive for Sabrina X and high end amps?
I have not asked my dealer as I am in the researching phase and would like to get your input. Please feel free to PM me if you prefer to share it in private.


I would appreciate any feedbacks that you may offer.

One very important issue--we all have different ears. It sounds to me like you've done plenty of thoughtful research and that you have a dealer you like. At this point, I would start listening. Your dealer probably has only a handful of amps in the $10-25K range (total cost of the pre + power for separates), I would listen to them all side by side--you will hear the synergy (or not) quickly.

Also, you mention prog rock/metal as 50% of your listening. As you may have seen in my other posts, the SabrinaX is likely to benefit from subwoofer if you really want to rock.

I would be surprised if you got a price discount unless there was some sort of "special" situation, such as a demo model.

Thank you PeterMusic.
The dealer carries Dan D'agostino, Audio Research and Luxman.

I am intrigued by ASR i/5 - especially since metaphacts mentioned the good match. The dealer has not received one but I have time.

Luxman, from what I read, it seems to match well with insensitive speakers.

re: bass - I am not a huge bass head. I auditioned Sabrina X with Luminol (Steven Wilson - The Raven That Refused To Sing And Other Stories album). This song starts with kick drum and it sounds very tight. In the middle of the song, there is transition period where there is a bass guitar passage, it sounds great here too. A reviewer used the same song to audition as well. But yes, it is good to have the option to add subwoofer if the need arises.

The Luxman M900u amplifier is a relative bargain, performing at a very high level. It would get out all the Sabrinas can give.

See if your dealer can audition that with the Sabrina’s.

Good luck with your search.

If you were not aware, I work for Wilson Audio.

That said my i50 comments were based on comments from ARC personnel whose value jugements I trust. I was at ARC a couple of Saturdays ago to set up their Sasha DAWs in the main listening room with Warren. Though I saw many i50 on the production line, there was not time to hear it with their Sabrina X.

Once I hear one, I can comment further.

Thank you metaphacts, I look forward to reading your thought on i50.
As mentioned, I am a hi-fi noob so please forgive me for these newbie questions - I am researching and learning.

I am guessing the amp that is suitable for Sabrina X needs to be able handle its impedance curve - in which it can dip to almost 2 ohms and MC275 can't?

The minimum recommended amp power for Sabrina X is 50 wpc so I am also curious what one might loose by powering it with i50 @ 50wpc vs. other larger wattage amp that can also handle it, e.g. Hegel H390.

In regards to my question on Sabrina X and my listening rooms, would there be any concern that the room is too small?

I am driving a Sabrina (not x) with a luxman m700u in a 14' x 12' room. The luxman sounds superb, never breaks a sweat even in the most demanding passages. Prior to the luxman I had a symphonic line kraft 250 which is a beast compared to the lux., weighs almost double and costs almost double as well. However there was no real difference between the 2, maybe the kraft had better grip on the lowest registers, but tbh I could not hear much of a difference. Hope this helps. I had the option of the m900u, but I wanted to get an amp. with a smaller, lighter footprint.
Cheers,
Sid

MA9000 would be an excellent choice. Adequate power (300W/ch) and Wilsons sound great with Mac power. At 10K it's a very large integrated and very beautiful. You can't go wrong with this combination. Good luck!

Best

Charles

The replacement for the Luxman M-900u, the M-10X, has been announced in Japan and should be available in the US 1Q22. So if you like the M-900u, these should be coming available used at attractive prices. However, you might also want to take a good look at Luxman's excellent integrated amp offerings.

IMO, a stronger recommendation would be the Gryphon Diablo 300 (which I own), or its little brother, the Diablo 120.

Thank you, I will see if the dealer has Luxman M900u, it is definitely out of my price range.

Your room is similar size to mine, it sounds like Sabrina does not overwhelm the room.


Thank you. Luxman M-900u and Gryphon Diablo 300 are out of my price range. At this price range, I would seriously consider MA12000 that comes with everything that I need.

Have you looked for a used M900u? Can be had for less than 10k. They are built like a tank and double down to 1 ohm. I have this amp and used it with the Sabrinas in a 24x16x9 room with great success!

+1

+2.

Luxman are reported to be bringing out an updated amp so the 900u may be both more available and less costly.

Look at US audiomart. 9500!

With preamp and dac, it will put me at $20k.

I started with $8k budget for amp+dac.
I am open for stretching it, but not sure if I want to go as far as ~$20k.

There are many options out there, I need to get firm on the budget and start narrow them down.

Luxman L-509X Integrated

Take a look at the Aesthetix Mimas with Dac module. There is one for sale at TMR audio.
I think you will like the price and the reviews are outstanding.

Pairing non-American made amplification with American made high-end speakers is just plain blasphemy in my book. McIntosh all the way!

Aesthetix is American made!

I’ll second the Mimas! I purchased one a few months ago after considering a few more common options and was surprised how good it was, particularly for the price. It does fly under the radar somewhat but IMHO delivers exceptional value. You also have the luxury of rolling tubes should you wish to for additional tweaking of the sound you like…

tldr; I placed an order on Sabrina X today in Quartz, I was quoted 12 weeks wait time.

Today I auditioned B&W 802 D4 that was paired with McIntosh MC611 and C2700 at BestBuy. The room is very well setup and treated.
The 803 is more appropriate for my room and the price at $20k is comparable to Sabrina X. but my local BB has 802 that shares similar cabinet design with 803 (smaller mid and woofers).
Then I drove to my Wilson Audio dealer while my impression is still fresh to re-auditioned Sabrina X that was paired with Luxman L-590AXII. Here, the room is actually open and not treated.

Some tracks that I used:
1. Luminol - Steven Wilson. This is a busy track that has a lot of things going on, Sabrina X handles it amazingly well, instruments were well separated while I found the 802 were surprisingly sound jumbled up.
802 can go down lower, which is expected, however Sabrina X is no slouch either and I feel - tighter/rounder.

2. Wish you were here - Pink Floyd. I heard some of the acoustic guitar notes on 802 that were sometimes on the far left and center and left again.
I play guitar both acoustic and electric guitar and this bothers me, while in Sabrina, I didn't notice this.

3. Blue Train - John Coltrane. The cymbals sound on 802 was harsh (to me) that during this song I was thinking if I could live with it for long listening session while with Sabrina X, wow, its tweeter is just so sweet to my ear.

4. Both side now - Seal (Joni Mitchell 75th). 802 vocal presentation is much forward thus much closer to the listener vs. Sabrina X. Perhaps 804 is more fully bodied but I prefer Sabrina X presentation.

TBH, I thought it was going to be a tough decision but across above four tracks, I much prefer Sabrina X, YMMV.

Now the hunt for the amp begins, considering:
* McIntosh MC462 and C2700
* McIntosh MA12000
* Luxman L-590AXII - I am suprised 30wpc(8ohms) and 60wpc(4ohms) can power Sabrina X nicely, not sure if the Luxman turns to AB class at higher load.
I forgot to ask the dealer if he put it on 8 or 4 ohms tap.

Blackfield, absolute congrats! Both the 802 D4 and Sabrina X are very fine speakers. However, I think you made a wise choice. It would seem that the MA12000 and L-590AXII are the direct competitors. It would also seem that he favors the Luxman over the Mac. I have found Mac and Wilson have good synergy. Again, congrats on your aquisition! :thumbsup:

Best

Charles

Great comparison, Blackfield--thanks! Too often our discussions on fine products omit any kind of shortcoming or unfavorable comparison. I agree that these are both excellent speakers with the B&Ws having an edge in fullness and the Wilsons having an edge in sweetness. As Charles suggested, I think you'll get a fuller sound on the Sabrina X with a McIntosh amp

Congrats on your purchase. :thumbsup: The Pass Labs integrated amp I ordered last week was also quoted at 12-13 weeks.

The last time I auditioned speakers (pre-covid) the dealer used a Luxman L-590AXII to drive three sets of Devore speakers (easy to drive) and two sets of Harbeth (somewhat less easy to drive). A terrific piece that I would not hesitate to own.

Although not an integrated and in a different price range new (maybe worth checking used?), but I wanted to mention that I heard the Sasha DAWs with Spectral amplification at the High End Munich show in 2019 and that combo sounded really very good, uber fast and detailed yet so smooth, one of best systems in show IMHO.

Congrats on the Sabrina's Blackfield.

Unless I missed a post in which you raised your budget, those three McIntosh units you mentioned are going to be well beyond your price point.

Like Charles said on page 1. The MA9000 (used) would be right at your max price and checks every box and then some. It comes standard with the new DA2 module which is an upgrade of the DAC in my MA8000 integrated which I absolutely love.

I personally would not go below any power unit less than 150 watts with those Wilson's. It's not that a lower powered amp won't drive them, but you don't want a 30 or 50 watt amp running out of gas and clipping on high dynamic range recordings. Your soundstage will collapse and damage to the Wilson's is possible.

I suggest you become a subscriber and see if Ivan can turn some rocks over and come up with a mint MA9000 that meets your price criteria.

Best of luck.

Thank you. I did raise my budget to around $12k. I can find a used MA12000 or C2700/MC462 within this budget. I am a subscriber and did not know that Ivan can source used equipment.

Given my small room size - 11ft x 13.5 ft, I think at this point I am leaning towards MA12000 and save a little bit of cash for other things.
I am not sure if I would drive Sabrina X loud enough to reap the benefits of MC462's more power and headroom. My only hesitation is I never own a separate, so there is a nagging feeling to not want to miss the opportunity yet I am not sure if I can hear the diff as I never A-B them.

The MSRP of the MA12000 is $14k and will probably see an increase in '22. Given how new it is it may be a while before previously owned units hit the market.

I'm not hanging any new job titles on Ivan. Just saying he's been known to did up a few nuggets from time to time. It never hurts to ask.

Good Luck! I think you're on the right track. :thumbsup:

Not to rehash an old debate....But, Charles, did you account for the room being only 11.5x13 when you advised against the MC275? I can't quite imagine being able to strain either the MA12000 or MC275 in a room of that size

To his defense, he never advised against MC275 for my rooms-in this thread. I only quoted him from a separate thread - in which the person may have a larger room than mine.

To repeat, here are my room sizes:
1. W 11' x L 13.5' x H 10'.
2. W 12' x L 16' x H 12'.

Charles did say MA9000 would do fine-in my thread, so MA12000 would have been better, one would think.

Go with the MA12000. I guarantee you that once you get it on your rack and fire it up you will forget the cost. Together with the Sabrina X it will form the nucleus of a great system for many years. You will be pleased this time next year that you went with this excellent combo. :yes:

Best

Charles

I considered so many options but narrowed down to McIntosh for their reputation, sound, my budget and their build quality. Luxman came second.

I ordered a used MA12000 earlier, should receive it sometime next week, :D.

Thank you Charles and everyone else for your inputs!

Now, onto the digital source, I need a music server, budget $3k.
I am guessing a unit with linear power supply, fanless, strip down OS (vs Mac Mini or Windows) are preferred for better SQ.
Still unclear what provides better SQ, NAS vs. internal SSD vs. else.

Unsurprisingly, there are so many options out there:
1. Bluenode
2. new/used Aurender
3. Innuos zen mini mk3 - problem with roon?
4. Lumin U2 mini
5. else?

Am guessing you will be very pleased with your MA12000 choice.

Why not fanless on the NUC?

BTW, congrats on your Pass Labs integrated, which model did you order?

About fanless, I think I may look at this the wrong way.
I have home PC that has my audio files, runs 24x7, connect to my home network and run at my office. Then if I want to go Roon route, I can install Roon core on this PC.

My listening room will be on other room so I think I just need a good streamer that can be connected via ethernet. This way the streamer does not have a spinning hard drive.

I plan to use DAC that is o MA12000 so I just need a streamer without DAC.
I would think this setup is better than having the audio on the streamer itself?
Am I on the right path here?

Well absolute congrats on the best choice! I absolutely would use the DA2 Module in the MA12000. Frankly, I think what you have including Sabrina X competitive with anything on the market in sonics and looks. If you had a larger room(s), this might not be true, but you don't. You won't have a bright, forward or flashy presentation. You will have a balanced one that you won't grow tired of. You will enjoy it more this time next year than when you first get it fired up. That's the beauty of Mac and Wilson. Again congrats! :thumbsup:

Best

Charles

Thank you. Went with the INT-25. Reviews are uniform on how "big" it wounds so am hoping it and my Canton 9Ks 'play well together'. But am thinking ahead and do wonder how the Sabrina X might work with the INT-25. :scratch2:

Reason I ask about the NUC is mine is fanless. Not sure they were offered with a fan when I purchased a couple of years ago. I'm leaning towards the Node 2i streamer. There are so many 'do it all' pieces out there and they change so often it gives me pause.......

Blackfield. You may be interested in this post by Stephen.

https://www.audioaficionado.org/show...97&postcount=7

I started with Bluesound and migrated over to using Roon core and the DA2 usb in my c2700 with an optical bridge much like described in the post. Much lower noise floor and better detail because of it. You may want to consider.

I have a Bluesound Node that is good for a modest second system. The sound quality is not sufficient for the system in my signature, even running it through the Yggy. So I think you need to go a step up. Aurender sound quality is much better. I have not heard the others.

I use a Naim Uniti Core--ripped CDs only, no streaming--it has the other features you mention and is in the price range. Sound quality is better than streaming, but not as convenient.

Thank you! Awesome diagram and just in time for my need.

I think I will go the above route, albeit a more modest one.

1. I have a powerful PC at home (on another room) that runs 24x7, I can install Roon Core here. The PC is connected to ethernet. Since this is on another room, PC fan noise is not a concern.

2. On the listening room, there is an ethernet jack. I can get OpticalRendu + power supply+FMC bundle and run ethernet cable to this. Then, get a good USB cable to connect it to MA12000.

Not sure if there is significant sonic difference/signal noise between a dedicated PC like sonicTransporter vs. powerful PC.



:thumbsup:

Welcome to the site ... one of the keys to a great set up is balanced components - Great speakers with a lesser quality amp is only gong to let you hear what great speakers sound like with a lesser quality amp - No fun there

At the level of components you are considering might be a good ides to factor cable costs into your budget - Quality equipment need quality cabling

Everyone has a preference and mine is WireWorld Silver Electra (I got mine from MasterLu) - You may want to think about replacing the standard issue power cords and interconnects - Quality cables aren't cheap but the plus side is they don't need a lot of updating for audio

If you do go the Mc452 route a dedicated 20 amp line is a McIntosh recommendation - Another component is a quality power conditioner .... dirty electricity is your enemy - It will make a measurable difference ... I mean you can actually have it measured

Anyway congratulations and enjoy the journey